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Food Revolution Summit 2017 - Day 5: The End of Heart Disease with English - cc1 subtitles  

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Ocean: This is Ocean Robbins and I am so excited that in

about six minutes, we're going to begin Day 5 of the Food

Revolution Summit. We're going to start today by sharing an

interview with a special mystery guest, who will be revealed to

you, at 8:00 a.m. pacific time, 7:00 Eastern and 3:00 p.m. GM T

an hour after that, we'll have an interview with Dr. Mimi

Guarneri. And at the top of the hour after

that, we'll object line with Dr. Kim Williams.

The subject for today's interviews is the end of heart

disease. What you can do to banish the

world's number one killer. The fact S heart disease kills

more than 14 million people every year worldwide. It's the

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leading cause of death on the planet.

It is making spouses into widows, it is leaving children

without their parents, destroying lives all over the

world. As you will discover itself it'd in most cases T can

be prevented and it can even be reversed with a healthy diet.

If you've just joined us, we'll begin with our surprise mystery

guest in approximately 5 minutes.

We have received such a wonderful response to the

Summit's first 4 days with more than 5,000 comments and more

than 240,000 participates now joining in.

As we move through this day, I want to invite to you post and

engage in the condominiums stream at the bottom of the

broadcast -- in in-the-comments stream at the bottom of the

broadcast page. What do you think of the

different speakers, what are you getting out of this summit.

F you'd like, can you respond to and engage with the comments of

other people as well. Refresh the comments button at

the bottom of the page. We heard from Heather who said,

I am a 60-year-old vibrantly active senior athletic woman who

over came polio, contracted from the required Vaccine in 1956.

Arch my Harvard trained uncle warned my parents they might not

walk as an adult. My mother's total dedication to

feeding me an organic Whole Foods, plant-based diet, proved

the medical establishment wrong. Every culture knows, we are what

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we eat, what we digest. Everything we feed our bodies

nourishes or insults their integrity.

It is our individual and collective responsibility to

love our bodies, ourselves, our animals, our planets, with this

basic life-affirming fundamental truth.

Thank you for sharing it far and wide.

Shouting it from the roof tops. You've galvanized or global

human heart beat. Thank you much, Heather and you

know, taking message out as widewidely as possible is really

our mission in the Food Revolution and it is why we're

here and I thank you for sharing it with us and the world.

Dee Rogerses I've learned more in the past two days that are

over the past year, and I've been searching for it a few

months ago, I was told I have a fatty liver.

I have tumors that are being monitored.

My LDL's are too high. Last year, I was borderline

diabetic. Which means, not really board

are line. I couldn't control food that is

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turned to sugar chimp told my doctor what I learned from you.

He gave me a blank stare. I've asked my cancer doctors

what hi eat and I was told, can you eat anything.

No. Not really.

I've lost 40 pounds and I feel better.

My blood chemistry levels are better.

My Cortisone levels are still high.

But my doctor didn't understand why I had questions about

anti-angioGenesis. My heart goes out to you, for

the suffering you've been enduring and the fear that comes

with that. I'm grateful you've had results

losing the 40 pounds, and blood chemistry levels coming to

normal, and we see you continuing to thrive and grow

and deepen in your engagement with this work and way of eating

I thank you much for sharing your story with us.

You know, there is an old saying, if the people lead, the

leaders will follow. I don't know how long it's going

to take for the leaders to follow on this but right now, we

have doctors and a food industry and a government that

are not getting the many we're sharing here.

We have we've got a food industry that acts like your

health didn't matter. We have got a medical industry

that acts like food didn't matter. And we have got a

government system that often acts like the health of the

people didn't matter. As it it was bought off by

corporate interest. But now, it is about taking

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leadership. We are standing up and getting

informed. When we lead with knowledge, and

when we lead with action. We help to shift our lives and

together, we help to shift the course of history.

We're going to be starting in about one minute here.

Today's topic is the end of heart disease.

What you can do to banish the world's number one killer.

We're going to begin with a very special guest.

Now, a few years ago at the Food Revolution, we conduct aid

survey of our members, asking who in all the world other they

would most like to hear my dad interview.

Who do you think came in first? Number one.

Ahead of presidents, the most famous celebrity on the planet.

World-renowned physicians and other hugely admired global

icons. Who was it?

In a few minutes you will find out starting very soon at

8:00 a.m. pacific. At the top of the next hour,

you'll hear from Dr. Mimi Guarneri.

On eating and living for a healthy heart.

After that, Dr. Kim Williams. Proven steps to prevent and

reverse heart disease. Each interview will be expertly

good guided by my dad and colleague, John Robbins.

I am so excited for today's speakers.

We'll begin with our first interview of the day in a

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moment. Here we go.

Ocean: Welcome to this special conversation where we are about

to explore, with a very special guest, how you can heal your

body, and your world -- with food! This is Ocean Robbins,

and I am joined by my dad and colleague John Robbins in

welcoming Dr. Sanjay Gupta.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta is a practicing neurosurgeon, and CNN's multiple

Emmy Award-winning chief medical

correspondent. He hosts the network's weekend health

program, Sanjay Gupta, M.D., and makes frequent appearances on

American Morning, Larry King Live, and Anderson Cooper 360.

Dr. Gupta has launched CNN's anti-obesity initiative, "Fit

Nation," and his powerful CNN special, The Last Heart Attack,

has educated millions of people about the power of their diet to

change their heart health and

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their lives. Dr. Gupta has been chosen by People Magazine as one

of the world's sexiest celebrities, and he's author of

several bestselling books, including Chasing Life and

Cheating Death.

Dr. Gupta is currently under contract with CNN, and CNN has

asked us to state that this interview with Dr. Gupta is

conducted independent of the food revolution summit and we

are pleased to share it with you

now. So now, for the interview itself, I'm going to hand it

over to my Dad and Colleague, Food Revolution Network

President and best-selling author, John Robbins.

John: Well, thank you Ocean, and thank you Sanjay for being with

us today. Sanjay: Thank you John. I really

appreciate it. I'm honored. John: Your documentary The Last

Heart Attack was originally a Dr. Sanjay Gupta special, and it

really did have a tremendous impact. While doing the

documentary, you interviewed former President Clinton who

radically improved his diet and became essentially vegan after

undergoing a quadruple bypass in

2004 for blocked arteries. He was strongly influenced by the

works of Dr. Dean Ornish and Dr.

Caldwell Esselstyn, among others, who have each conducted

serious research showing that with the kind of diet Clinton

adopted, we actually could prevent nearly all heart attacks

and could also reverse many forms of advanced heart disease.

What I want to ask you, Sanjay, is did you learn anything while

doing that documentary that changed the way you eat?

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Sanjay: When I was in medical school and even during my

training, there was this notion,

I think in part cultural and in part based on the teachings from

my professors, that things become fixed. If you develop a

certain amount of blockage in your arteries--your coronary

arteries in this case--hat's fixed. You can't really do

anything about it other than having an angioplasty or having

surgery to bypass those vessels. What was sort of striking to me,

and I knew this going in, was the fact that people were

saying, "Look, without medications, without new

medications, without having an invasive procedure, you could

reverse heart disease." Now, for a lot of people,

they've known that for a long time, and again, I've heard

about that, but I think when you look at Caldwell Esselstyn's

data--and by the way, some of it is his predecessor's work of T.

Colin Campbell with The China Study--you had evidence that the

diet could actually reverse what people had previously thought

was something that you were going to have for life.

It was a personal thing, as well, to some extent, because I

have a bad family history of heart disease. So I was very

interested in that part of it.

John: Did anything fine-tune your understanding, then, of the

connection between food and heart disease and the potential

to reverse it? Sanjay: Well, when we do a

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documentary like this we... It's exhaustive in terms of what we

would look at. Certainly, we'd want to tell the stories of

people who clearly have lived and are making the point that

we're talking about, but we also, obviously, want to bolster

that up with real data because we don't want this to be just an

anecdotal story where someone would watch and say, "Oh, well

that's fine for that one person, but what about everybody else?

You're not telling me that adopting a plant-based diet's

going to reverse my heart disease. Maybe it worked for

that person." So we want to make sure we actually bolster it up

with data--that we show the images. I think when people look

inside a coronary vessel, look at it and they see the blockage,

and they look at it again after someone has had a plant-based

intervention, if you will, those things leave an impression.

I changed my diet, John, as a result of this, as well, because

my goal was to say, "Look," in part selfishly, "I don't want to

have heart problems. I got my genes somewhat stacked against

me, but I'm hearing more and more that I can be in control."

That's what I wanted. John: Well, I think a lot of

people who watched the documentary The Last Heart

Attack walked away from it understanding perhaps for the

first time that the best weapon against heart disease may not be

surgical interventions, may not be drugs, but could rather be

something much simpler: changing the way we eat. Do you think

that this might not be true just

about heart disease, but that our best weapon against other

chronic diseases might be the food we eat, also?

Sanjay: I do believe that food can be a very important and also

very durable medicine, if you

will. I use "medicine" in the broadest sense of the term. When

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it comes to many of the chronic diseases that we talk about, not

only is it effective--and there's data that shows that not

just from the United States but from places around the

world--but also durable. I watch family members go through heart

surgery and have these invasive things done to them, and look, I

was very thankful for it because I think it certainly improved,

if not saved, their lives. But the idea that they were going to

continue to have the same problem, that we weren't solving

it, we were just delaying it... That always weighed on me. The

idea that something could be

both effective and durable in terms of how long it's going to

last is clearly food. And the way that we consume it makes a

huge difference. John: When I think about food

and medicine, I remember some famous quotes from the past.

Henry David Thoreau once said, "People may deem themselves

happy when that which they eat is also their medicine."

Sanjay: Mm-hmm. [Affirmative] John: Hippocrates, the original

author of the Hippocratic Oath, which even today is taken by

physicians and considered a rite of passage for practitioners of

medicine in many countries, famously said, "Let food be thy

medicine and medicine be thy food."

Sanjay: Right, right. John: Now in recent years, we've

had a massive number of studies showing us that eating plenty of

vegetables and fruits, for example, is linked to a lower

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risk for many chronic and potentially life-shortening

diseases. Sanjay: Mm-hmm. [Affirmative]

John: Yet, and this is the thing that concerns me, less than a

quarter of the medical schools in the United States today have

even a single required course in nutrition, and of the 130

accredited medical schools in the country, only four have a

nutrition department.

Sanjay, do you think that mainstream medicine is only just

beginning to understand the

enormous power of excellent nutrition?

Sanjay: Absolutely. When I was in medical school, I had no

nutrition classes. Most of what I've learned about nutrition,

probably all of it, has been on my own--reading and talking to

people like you and people who've really spent the time

with not only the outcome studies but also the mechanistic

studies. Looking at, "Okay, it works. Why does it work? Is it

something that people can incorporate--that anybody can

incorporate--into their lives? Are there downsides? Are there

downsides from adopting just a plant-based diet?"

We looked at many of those types of things, again, for the

documentary, but I think you're absolutely right. Mainstream

medicine has been slow to adopt and remains slow to adopt it,

and slower in the United States than in some other countries. We

really wanted to even try and understand why that was. Why? If

all the things that you are saying are true and no one

disagrees with it, why has there been such slow adoption? People

have different theories on that. I'm happy to share some of mine,

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but I think there's no question that what you're saying is true.

My medical school... I went to the University of Michigan. Now

does have nutrition--a nutrition segment, if you will--of one of

their courses. It's not even an entire course. I graduated from

medical school 24 years ago, so it's taken a quarter of a

century, almost, for some of these things to take place.

John: Well, I would be interested, and I'm sure our

listeners would, too, in some of your understandings and theories

and speculations about why it is

taking so long. What is the resistance?

Sanjay: I think, in some ways, it's human nature. I think with

regard to medicine, and other fields as well, we like home

runs and touchdowns. We like fast, quick abilities to

intervene. It's the idea that a stent or an operation or a pill

could do things much more quickly than adopting lifestyle

changes. Then all that's magnified by the fact that what

we're exposed to, on a regular basis, is advertising of the

types of foods that are not good for us. That advertising starts

at a young age. It becomes a real part of the culture here.

And I think, again, as with other elements of our society,

there is a problem of becoming a victim of your success when

you're able to say that we have very effective statin

medications that can lower cholesterol. People can

sometimes look that as an excuse

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to eat what they want to eat. I think that that's a part of it.

There's also sometimes conflicting information that

comes out. There was a study that came out not that long ago

that was really a nonsensical study. It basically said, "Look,

a vegetarian diet can actually increase the risk of some of

these problems that most studies showed that it would decrease

the risk of." It wasn't a great study, but the problem is that

it's sometimes exactly what people want to hear, so it gets

trumpeted around, and people really buy into it, share it,

and use it as an excuse to keep foods that aren't great for

them. There are lots of different

reasons, but I think within the medical establishment itself, it

seems like it's always in fireman mode. We don't focus

enough on prevention. We already know that. But we don't even

focus enough on doing things that work but just work more

slowly, sometimes, than the more expensive and more invasive

therapy. John: Well, when you mentioned

statins, I was thinking about how often doctors prescribe

statins to lower low-density lipoprotein levels. I'm also

aware that there could be a better way to do that; I'm

thinking about a yearlong study that was conducted in the

University of Toronto by Dr. David Jenkins. He created what

he calls the Portfolio Diet, which is essentially a high

fiber, vegan, whole-foods diet. It was shown to lower LDL

cholesterol as much as--or even more than--the blockbuster

cholesterol drugs . Now his kind of a diet may be

too strict for some people, but do you think people should at

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least become aware of, should at least be educated, at least by

told by their doctors about this kind of option if the doctor is

going to tell them to take statins?

Sanjay: I think it absolutely has to be part of what patients

are offered in terms of their choices. They should certainly

be educated about it. I do feel

like, oftentimes for the doctors as well, that the idea that a

quick fix makes sense. I think the sentiment often is, "This is

what the patients really want to hear; they want the quick fix.

We can send them to nutritional counseling, we can educate them

about things like the Portfolio Diet, but it'll take longer, it

will require more follow-up visits." It is going to require

a certain amount of diligence

from the patients. "Are we perhaps doing our patients a

disservice"--that's what some of

the medical community will say--"by not ensuring that we

get that LDL level down as quickly as possible and in a way

that we think they're going to

be more compliant?" I think it's not particularly complicated

thinking, and I don't think I can speak certainly for all

doctors, but I think it can be as simple as, as soon as someone

says, "We're going to be talking more about soy-based foods,"

[CHUCKLES] their patients will say, "No thanks, not for me."

If we're talking about sticky fiber and incorporating more of

it into your diet, some people are going to say, "No thanks.

That's not for me." The follow-up part of that

discussion is, "Look, here's what we're talking about. We're

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talking about using products to just thicken the food that

you're already taking, using preferred vegetables. Here's

what they are."

John, what's striking to me--and I think this is the journalist

in me, even more so than a doctor--is I think medicine has

had a very didactic approach to these things: "Here is what you

should do. Okay? That's what you should do. I'm telling you

that's what you should do."

People kind of say, "Well, why? Why should I do that, and how

does it work?" I think if you take the extra beat--and I'm not

saying you have to spend extra hours with patients, even--I'm

saying you take the extra beat to explain, "Here's how it

works," then they understand because they're very interested

in their bodies. They're interested in understanding

their body. That's the most intimate thing they know. If you

explain why the Portfolio Diet could be beneficial and they

could avoid taking medications--and by the way,

some of these medications have side effects--I think people are

much more likely to be compliant with it.

I saw that just in my own anecdotal observations around

The Last Heart Attack, because lots of people were asking me

about it. I would say, "Here is why some of this works. Here's

why you don't have to eat a lot of meat to get protein," and

something here about, "There are other sources. Here's what it

can do to your coronary arteries. Here, let me show you

inside your body." It tends to be something that will stick

with people a lot more. I think patients should

absolutely know. They should know. They do a lot of research

on their own already. They'll go online and look for the stuff.

We've got to make sure, as you guys do, that the quality of

what they're seeing is of the highest quality possible.

John: I agree. I listen to a lot of nutritional experts, and I

look at a lot of the studies. It seems to me that there is a

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consensus about a lot of things among people who really do

follow the literature. Most of the nutritional experts that

I've spoken with eat a whole-foods, plant strong diet.

They vary in how much fat they eat, they vary in whether they

eat fish or not. They vary in

whether they eat small amounts of butter or cheese--some do,

some don't. But most of them, I have found, don't have meat in

their homes. They all seem to agree that plant-based diets are

anti-inflammatory, give us higher energy levels throughout

the day, lead to greater health and longevity.

Sanjay, does the way you eat, personally, fit with what I'm

describing? Sanjay: The way that I eat

personally fits pretty well. I'm a person... I have three young

children in the home and a very busy life. I have a wife who's

very health-conscious but who

fits a little bit into the paradigm of what I was

describing earlier--she wants to not just be told what to do, but

to have a little bit more of the "why." I'm fortunate because I

get to really dive into the "why" of things and be able to

explain it. But for example, we do not keep meat in the house.

That was a decision that we made because it was just too easy to

go to the meat. It also, I

think, it sent a message to our children that this could be a

daily food, and we didn't want it to be thought of as a daily

food. We will allow meat if we

go out somewhere, or if someone offers us meat at their home,

for example, we may not turn it

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down. That sort of thing. We're

not absolutists with regard to that, but I think that we've

tried to send some important signals to each other and to our

kids. We also keep a vegetable garden,

which I have found to be very

effective. We have three little girls. It's very effective for

them because they're fascinated by it. They're fascinated in

just seeing something grow and

by the fact that food that comes out of the ground is something

you can eat. Just basic things that I think maybe we take for

granted. But if you've grown up in a world of completely

processed foods, big grocery stores with lots of shiny

packages, you sometimes may not even know where some of that

food comes from. So that's what we've tried to adopt, and it

works pretty well for us. We're a lot better than we were.

I'll just tell you quickly, I don't want belabor the point,

but when I was in residency, doing my residency as a doctor,

working in a hospital, the food choices I had at the hospital

were terrible food choices. It

was so ironic, in retrospect, that you're working as a person

who is learning how to heal, and yet the system is not designed

such that you can actually take care of yourself. You recognize

it at the time, but it becomes, in part, cultural. "The hospital

says it's okay to have a McDonald's, have a lot of food

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that's high in sodium, lots of meats, lots of fatty foods. The

hospital says it's okay. Is it really that bad?" It takes some

further education to dispel some of those notions.

John: It does, and when you mentioned that you have a

vegetable garden, I thought, "Well, that's wonderful. I wish

all of us, or that many more of us, could have that." I even

think we should have a Department of Home Grown

Security, actually. Sanjay: [CHUCKLES] I like that.

I like that!

John: [CHUCKLING] Yeah, you know, we have long supply chains

to bringing us our food. Food often travels thousands of miles

before it get to us, and those long supply chains are subject

to rupture at different spots. If you're talking about food

security, having a Department of Home Grown Security... If we got

behind and really supported family gardens, vegetable

gardens in vacant lots, and community-supported agriculture,

I think we would have a healthier people, we'd have

people more connected to nature, we'd have our children more

involved, which would be a wonderful thing... I think we'd

have more security.

Sanjay: We do these stories, John--and this is not

hyperbolic; this is true. It's going to sound hyperbolic. We

would do these stories in Chicago where people who were

living in certain communities, prior to developing their own

urban gardening and being very successful at it, would say that

it was easier for them to get a handgun than to get a tomato. It

was shocking to me that that could be the case, but it was

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I actually set out with this woman one day and said, "All

right, let's go get a tomato. Show me." It was a process of

being on two different buses, walking quite a distance,

eventually finding a store that had a very small selection, a

small supply of vegetables, and hoping that they had some

tomatoes that day. It just was

not easy at all. The system, for her, was not designed for her to

be able to eat healthy. In her case, she took it on herself to

start a small, urban garden in her community outside of

Chicago. It was effective. It did all the things that you say.

People were all responsible for it. It connected them to nature.

It also connected them to themselves and to each other,

within that community. Even if you took out the health

benefits for a second, it seems that all of our social activity

in the United States and in many developed nations revolve around

food and drink. That's what the social activities revolve

around. Even children's birthday parties revolve around serving

food that is not healthy and drinking alcohol. Yet, when you

have an urban garden like this, you have a social space, a place

where people come together over,

still food, but healthy food, in this case. I just found it to be

a different environment. And

that's just leaving aside the health benefits of being able to

eat that food that's grown locally.

We've also seen, as you point

out, working for a breaking news network, when there are food

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outbreaks (salmonella, E. coli, things like that), it always

does raise this question for people, "Where is our food

coming from? How many steps along the way? From

farm-to-fork, how many places of possible contamination?" Again,

for that reason alone, just to have safe food, secure food,

those messages, I think, do resonate with people. Even

before you get into the obvious physiological health benefits

for the body.

John: Yeah, that's true. You mentioned children's party

birthdays and how we serve ice cream and cake. Our culture

seems to have normalized eating a lot of sugar as a form of

reward or celebration. It's odd to me--it's odd to me that we

don't see that as odd. It's so normalized, that no one says,

"Well, we're celebrating your birthday by eating a food that's

going to, if you eat a lot of it," and we do in this culture,

"Is going to compromise your

health. It's going to undermine your ability to function. It's

going to probably shorten your

life. It's going to probably add weight to you that you don't

need." There are so many ways in which we have normalized eating

foods as celebration and reward that really aren't good for us.

Sanjay: Yeah, look. No one probably knows more about this

particular topic than you. You've lived it.

John: [CHUCKLING] Yes. Sanjay: I know. I will say

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something, and this is something that... It's not a full answer

to this. I will say that if you look at the consumption of sugar

and high-fructose corn syrup, and you look at the trajectory

that our country has been on, and you look at what happened in

the '70s with Senate Commissions that were trying to determine

what constituted a healthy diet

in the United States at that time... There were a few

studies, as I'm sure you know, that were specifically looking

at patients with hypercholesterolemia--very, very

high cholesterol, typically for genetic reasons--that were

showing that those patients had higher rates of heart disease

and then showing, as no one would be surprised, that eating

meats, eating fatty foods and stuff like that, raised those

cholesterol levels. And we became a country that really

focused, tried to focus, at least, on low fat. Some would

say we haven't done a very good job of that, but we have,

compared to where we were and the trajectory that we were on

at that time.

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But if you look at what happened around that time as well, you

start seeing a great increase in

sugar consumption. It was already going up. You could look

at the significant increases around the time of sugar

refining and all that. But it continued to go up, and it went

up even more now, because if food was going to taste good and

you took all the fat out of it and you put sugar into it, then

SnackWell's cookies became a health food. That was what

people believed. Then you complicated matters

even further, because high-fructose corn syrup--corn

being heavily subsidized by the government, making it very

cheap, as a result--used not just as a sweetener, but also as

a humectant--to make foods moist. Okay, it's not sweet, but

it's soft. People don't realize that that's probably sugar, as

well, that's doing that. What happened over those 40 years

that we made this strategic decision in the United States?

Everybody knows what happened. Obesity rates went up for adults

and children. Rates of diabetes went up for adults and children.

Heart disease remains the biggest killer for men and women

alike. Nothing got better. Everything got worse, and sugar

was a big culprit, probably all along.

People still don't think of sugar as something that can

raise your bad cholesterol levels. Fat does that. They

don't see it as sugar. They don't realize what sugar does to

your liver and how your liver will start churning out those

LDLs, because our bodies were never designed to absorb 130

pounds of sugar a year, which is about the average, I understand,

of sugar consumption in the United States. We would get

fruit a few times a year, after

harvest, when the fruit was literally falling from the

trees. It was mixed with a lot of fiber. Our bodies didn't

evolve to be able to absorb it this way. It got normalized.

Other foods were understandably more demonized, but the

perception was, "Well, that's the bad food. These other foods

must not be as bad. They may, in fact, be good. They could even

be health foods," such was the case with certain things like

SnackWell's cookies. I'm picking on them, but there are lots of

examples. John: We evolved, actually, with

[the reality] that the sweetest thing that most humans could

fruits, excluding wine (to look

ever get was fruit. But that was seasonal. How many times a year

are berry bushes ripe? Now, berries are foods that people

are told to eat to be healthier and to lose weight and to get

off sweets. Sanjay: That's right.

John: I want to shift a little bit to another question. We eat

too much of just about everything. That seems to be the

case--just look at our waistlines. The traditional

Okinawans are renowned for being the longest-lived and healthiest

people that have ever been thoroughly studied. Among the

many features of their lives that have contributed to this is

a tradition they call, "hara hachi bu," which means "eating

only until you're 80% full and then stopping." Now, Sanjay,

rumor has it that you've been known to whisper this phrase out

loud when eating in restaurants with your wife. I want to ask

you, first, are those rumors true? And seriously, does eating

only until 80% full make sense from a neuroscience perspective?

Sanjay: Yep. [LAUGHING] The rumors are true, and I do it

with my wife, and I do it with my friends, as well, when we go

out to eat. I think it used to drive them crazy in the

beginning, but now the people--at least the people who

I spend a fair amount of time with--whisper it themselves. I

think I spent the time not only explaining the "what," but the

"why," again. I was fascinated by this. I spent time in

Okinawa. We were working on this film called Chasing Life, and

same thing--what can we learn from folks that are the

longest-lived people on the planet? I mean, what are they

doing? It's kind of like that scene in When Harry Met

Sally--"I'll have what she's having."

When I would ask them about their longevity, "ha hachi bu"

was a phrase that kept coming up. At first, it sounded a bit

Pollyannaish. It sounded a bit impractical to me. I mean, who

knows when they're 80% full? How do you even know that? And also

the idea that it could have such benefits? We really started to

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investigate, and there are just a couple of truisms that I think

apply here. One is that it just takes time for our brains to

catch up to our stomachs that, in fact, we're satiated. There's

a satiety center in the brain, and it gets signals from your GI

tract that, in fact, you've had enough food. You've had enough

of certain types of foods. You don't need to eat anymore. But

it's not an immediate feedback loop. It takes time. It can take

15 minutes for the brain to actually catch up to the


The problem is that many Americans can eat another

three-course meal in those 15 minutes. So by the time we're

really getting the satiety signals, we've typically way

over eaten. We've really significantly over eaten. So by

simply pushing the plate away at a point when you're not full and

just giving it a little bit of time, recognizing that you'll be

fine, you'll feel full. Just give it a little bit of time--15

minutes or so--I think really leaves an impression on people.

There's all sorts of different things where the brain and the

body are interacting in this way that, if you understand it

better, it'll help you eat, not just the right foods, but the

way that you eat will change as well.

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John: When you asked, "Who knows when they're 80% full?" I think

the people who know are more often the people who are eating


Sanjay: Yes.

John: Because if you're on a rampage, chowing it down, you're

not going to notice the signals that your body is sending you.

They do have a delay to them, but the signals are reliably

sent. They come through nerves. They come through chemical

messengers. The signals are there, but many of us have

become remarkably adept at ignoring them.

Sanjay: Right. Mindlessly eating and becoming really adept at

ignoring the signals. And there are all sorts of traps, and

that's one of them--it's that our brain has not yet told us to

stop eating. It's kind of like you're on autopilot. You have to

sometimes take the controls as a human being. You've got to be in

control. You can't just rely on everything being on autopilot.

Another example that I like to give, that I imagine you know

well, is that if you look at the areas that really signal thirst

versus hunger in the brain and look at some of the peptides,

the signaling mechanisms, if you will, there's a lot of overlap.

All that to say that we oftentimes... In a country where

we have plenty of resources, where there's plenty of food

available, when you get that pang, if you will, that pang of

peptides that are now signaling,

"Hey man, I need something. I need something right now," if

you live in an area of abundance and you say you need something,

that something you're going to reach for is probably food

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instead of drinking water because you're actually

dehydrated. And so as a country, we walk around chronically

dehydrated and overstuffed because of that.

In areas of the world where

they're not so resource-intensive as we are in

the United States, they don't have that luxury. So yes,

they're eating less, but they're probably eating more in

alignment in some places with the way humans should eat. There

are all sorts of different reasons for that in terms of how

we evolved, but I think that what really happens is this

chronically dehydrated and overstuffed sort of America that

we're living in. John: I think when we are

thirsty, a lot of us drink soda pop, and so we're getting water,

we're hydrating, but we're also getting a lot of sugar and

sometimes chemicals, as well. The numbers of us that actually

drink water... Just drink water. Maybe filtered water because we

don't want to drink water that smells like a swimming pool, but

drinking healthy water, I think, is one of the keys to a healthy

life, actually--to drink water rather than all the beverages

that are sold to us. I mean, you can drink them sometimes, but if

your primary form of hydration is soda pop or coffee, then

you're drinking six, seven cups a day and you start to get into

problems... We have somehow made water a peasant thing.

Sanjay: [CHUCKLES] Yeah. That is interesting. We're very

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vulnerable to the advertising around water--or I should say

the advertising around other drinks other than water. I think

it's interesting. If you look at what happened with bottled water

and how in some ways adding and increased cost to the water may

have been beneficial to certain segments of the population

because they actually now thought, "Well, this is

something of greater value. Obviously, I'm paying for it, so

I will drink it," but you're right. Water has gotten a short

shrift in this. If the substitute is a sugary

drink... It's a sugar delivery device, is what it is, and

there's nothing to mitigate the rate of absorption from sugar in

a drink. Sugar in a drink, even more than anything else,

probably, is the fastest way that sugar is getting into your

body. It's hitting your liver like a tsunami wave, and your

liver has not evolved to be able to handle that. It's a huge


Sugary drinks--it's a point that we've made for a long time. I

did a special on 60 Minutes all about sugar. It's striking to me

that it's still taking so long for people to understand the

perils of that. The advertising campaigns that you see around

sugary drinks are like, "Look,

it can be part of a healthy diet. You just need to walk

around the park a few times," or whatever it may be. It is not

that simple at all. It's not just the calories [that are the

problem], but in this case, the type of calorie and the rate at

which those calories are absorbed that's making a

difference. It's worth explaining that to people

because I think when you do, it makes a mark. They actually are

more likely to modify their behaviors because of it.

John: What would you have

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parents tell their children? Kids are bombarded with ads. The

soda pop companies are very sophisticated in targeting

children. It's almost like they put a bull's eye on their backs.

Parents who want their kids to eat healthier and to make

healthier choices and to understand why, what would you

encourage them to say to their kids?

Sanjay: I think that kids are not born necessarily with these

sorts of cravings. I think, certainly, that practicing what

you preach as a parent... I'm speaking, in part now or maybe

mostly, as a parent of three little kids because I've had to

be somebody who actually did what I talk about. I had to

practice what I preach, and so I've seen this now for 12 years

with my own kids--my oldest is 12. I think you really have to

practice what you preach. You have to make sure that there are

a lot of the healthy food choices available and have very

concrete discussions about food.

I have a funny story. When we did this sugar story for 60

Minutes, it was right before school started, and I went to

one of the parent-teacher picnics ahead of time. There

were all these kids around and lots of parents, and the

principal of the school comes up and says, in a very loud voice

such that all these kids could hear her, "Dr. Gupta, I just

want you to know I watched your thing on 60 Minutes, and as a

result of that, we're no longer going to have any sugary foods

in the school," including at

that picnic, which typically had various sugary options for the

kids. And so all of a sudden, I was this guy who was a bit of a

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pariah among all the children.

hear her, "Dr. Gupta, I just want you to know I watched your

thing on 60 Minutes, and as a result of that, we're no longer

going to have any sugary foods in the school," including at

that picnic, which typically had various sugary options for the

kids. And so all of a sudden, I was this guy who was a bit of a

pariah among all the children.

I do think I was willing to tolerate that because now, and

this was a few years ago, when I look at that class and I look at

my kids, there's not this

overwhelming craving for those students. We've just set an

example in our household to not have to have it. My kids... They

actually don't feel well if they're eating too much sugar.

We talk about that, and we talk about the impact on their

bodies. It's a constant discussion. Food is important. I

think it ends up being a thing that families don't talk about

much or it's a simple after-thought. They just want to

get calories into their kids as quickly as possible, and they

don't have the conversation

about something as integral to our lives as food. We do. We're

not great or perfect by any means. We make mistakes in our

family, but we have the conversation, and I think it

does leave an impression on them.

John: Well, I'm glad that you do have those conversations. That's

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so important. I grew up eating an awful lot of sweets. My dad

owned an ice cream company, famously. [CHUCKLING]

Sanjay: [CHUCKLING] I've heard of that company, yeah.

John: Yeah. I ate a ton of ice cream. I drank Coke. I mean, I

just... Eating something like carrots, which are pretty sweet

as far as vegetables go, tasted

like cardboard to me then. My taste buds were hijacked by the

amount of sugar that I was eating. Then I made changes and,

over time, stopped eating junk and ate much more healthfully,

and I began to notice subtler flavors that I had just been

unaware of before.

Sanjay: Yeah. Yeah.

John: And I began to appreciate them and really find them to be

delicious and exquisite. And then, if I was to be back at my

folks' house and they'd serve ice cream and I'd eat it, my

taste buds would feel overpowered. They would feel

overwhelmed. It would feel,

actually, unpleasant--too sweet.

Sanjay: Yes. Right. John: And I notice that I was

actually becoming more aware and sensitive to life in some ways

by eating healthfully--that I wasn't drenching myself in

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hyper-stimulating foods, and

that gave me more appreciation

for all kinds of things that take place in life that aren't

manufactured to overwhelm.

Sanjay: It's really interesting to hear that, John, especially,

again, from your perspective, because I think a lot of people

suspect what you're saying to be

true, but have maybe not experienced it the way that you

have. I think that's something that people are going to want to

hear. I also have found that we have a

challenging job, sometimes, in medical journalism when talking

about these things. In some

ways, and I don't want to oversimplify here, but in some

ways, what we're trying to do when we talk about some of these

topics is we're trying to prove a negative. We're trying to say,

"If you eat these foods, if you avoid those foods, then nothing

will happen to you," and by "nothing," we mean you're not

going to have a heart attack. You're not going to develop the

chronic diseases that are associated with food. "Nothing

will happen to you if you do this." It's not the most

inspiring message, and people may say, "Well, how would I know

that nothing wasn't going to happen to me regardless of what

I ate? How do I know that it was the food? How do I draw that

connection, that line between the two?" Which is why, what you

just said, I think, is so important.

Look, even if you're a skeptic and you say, "I'm not sure that

this food's going to reverse my coronary artery disease or

reduce my risk of these sorts of problems..." It actually feels

pretty good to eat this food. I feel good when I eat it, and

when I eat these other foods, I feel not as good. I feel

sluggish. I don't feel like I'm performing or I'm optimized as

much as I could be. The idea that there's a more

immediate feedback loop... I think that's part of human

nature. What is the feedback loop here? "When I eat those

foods that science has shown--and I think most

scientists and nutritionists and people in that world agree

fruits, excluding wine (to look

upon--are good foods in terms of reducing my risk, does it also

feel good to eat those foods? Will I be better somehow? Will I

think better? Will I perform better? Will I be more

productive?" Whatever the metric is that you're looking at,

creating that feedback loop for yourself, I think, makes a big

difference. Like I said, I rarely eat meat.

When I started primarily eating a plant-based diet, I felt

better. I even noticed little things like my running times

improved. I shaved 45 seconds off my miles when I started

doing that. That meant something to me. I couldn't look inside my

coronary arteries, but yeah, shaving 45 seconds off? I took a

great pride in that. There were little things that created my

own feedback loop that I think were important. In your case,

the other foods just didn't

taste good anymore. These foods actually tasted better, and you

got more joy out of it.

I think everyone needs to find that thing for themselves as

well, as opposed to just listening to us talk about it

reducing your risk of disease. That's like swatting at flies.

I'm not telling you just to

prevent disease. I'm telling you to optimize yourself. Wherever

you are today, you can be better tomorrow, okay? Just take that

and figure out how food plays into that equation for you.

John: I love what you're saying. In our culture, we have tended

to define health as the absence of disease, which is a negative.

It's nothing, really. [LAUGHING]

Sanjay: Right. John: What health actually is is

vitality and vibrancy and clear

thinking and emotional resilience and shaving 45

seconds off your mile time and being stronger as you age and

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not losing vitality and not losing your vigor and not losing

your potency.

There are so many ways that living in a healthy body--that

you're feeding it the fuel that it is really designed to eat and

functions best with--creates a higher quality of life, and yet

we've normalized being overweight. We've normalized

eating foods that suppress our emotions and distance us from

life and numb us out. It takes an act of will sometimes, or

courage--or sometimes it takes a problem--to motivate people.

Sanjay: Right. John: I think what you're doing,

and what we're trying to do, is giving people the social

support, the emotional support, so it becomes a little easier to

do the right thing. Sanjay: Yeah. I agree. And I

don't know what you've seen in your own worldview or among your

social circle. I will say, on a positive note, I do feel that

things are changing. I think people, the average consumer,

probably do think about this more than they did. I couldn't

imagine going to a neighborhood barbecue five or 10 years ago...

If I opted out of getting the ribs and instead got just a

salad and a bunch of vegetables, that, somehow, would have been

an assault on my masculinity in some way. [LAUGHS]

John: Yeah. Yeah.

Sanjay: I mean, it almost felt that way, right? [LAUGHS] Where,

"This guy--he's not even going to eat any meat." But now I see,

actually, a fair number of people doing the same thing,

even people who are full of machismo. They're like, "I'm

passing on the meat. I'm good. I actually feel much better when I

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eat this food, and I don't need that food," and then "I'm

drinking water. I don't need to drink a big Coke or other soft

drinks." In my own anecdotal experience, there seems to be

more awareness and more ability to eat that sort of way and have

it feel normal. John: Yes, it feels normal, and

then it becomes easier, and then

our kids can do it with us, too.

Sanjay, you mentioned earlier that you really didn't receive

much nutritional--or any nutritional--education in

medical school. You have nevertheless persevered to

understand and to learn more about how we can use the food we

eat to prevent suffering, to save money, to enhance the

quality of our lives in so many ways. I have really great

respect for physicians like you who've taken it upon yourself to

do that. Sanjay: Thank you.

John: You're going uphill, and you're sharing it with people,

and that is how the healing happens, I think. I want to tell

you, it's been an honor and a pleasure to speak with you today

and to bring your wisdom to our audience. On behalf of Ocean and

myself and of everyone involved, really, in the food revolution,

I thank you. I thank you for your outstanding work, your

integrity, your brilliance, and of course, for your being with

us today.

Sanjay: The feelings are so mutual. I think for someone like

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you, in particular, John, the legacy you're going to leave

behind, the transformation that you've gone through in your own

life, that's a story that everyone should hear, and I'm

honored that you've spent some time with me.

Ocean: We've been talking with CNN's multiple Emmy

Award-winning chief medical correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta,

producer of The Last Heart

Attack and author of many bestsellers, including Chasing

Life. Sanjay, your educational efforts

and your bold leadership are bringing wisdom and health to

millions. We're so grateful for your brilliant reporting, for

your leadership in both the media industry and in the

medical community, for sharing

your insights with our listeners, and for your

partnership in the food revolution.

Sanjay: It's an honor, Ocean. Thank you for having me.

Ocean: Thank you much to Dr. Sanjay Gupta and to my dad

and colleague, John Robbins for that incredibly, touching,

inspiring conversation. To express your opinions.

Post and engage in the comments section at the bottom of our

fruits, excluding wine (to look

broadcast page make sure to refresh the comments using the

button that's that's provided there so can you seat most

recent comments. Our next presentation will be an

interview with Dr. Mimi Guarneri.

It will start at the top of the next hour in about 13 minutes,

followed by Dr. Kim Williams at the top of the hour after that.

And now, I want to share and respond to a few of the comments

we've been receiving and also offer a few of my own

reflections we want heard from Donna who said great selection

as a surprise speaker. Thank you, thank you.

Thanks, Don A. I agree. We were thrilled to be able to

shirt interview with Dr. Gupta. Christian said thank you, Sanjay

Gupta, for spreading the many of healthy eating into the

mainstream. Your work equates to better

health for many more humans and our Earth.

I appreciate your work and commitment.

Yes, Christian, I do, too. Every time I see Dr. Gupta on

CNN, I feel grateful he is out there, bringing this knowledge

to the world in such a public, widespread forum.

Julie said, I am so excited for today.

Saturday, I was working my part-time job.

I do women's nails. When I told my client I had to

listen to this while diher nails, she seemed unhappy.

Halfway through, I found out her mother has diabetes z. started

fruits, excluding wine (to look

to take in what was being said and asked if I could sender the

link so her husband could listen as he has many health issues as

well. I was happy she didn't leave

upset with me. Whew.

So happy you all are here for us.

Julie, that is a great story. I'm going to remember it.

You know, when you take the risks to share your learning

journey, you never know who's life you're going to change

along the way. Isabelle Li said, I love listen

to the Food Revolution Summit each year.

I use the information in my life.

It has helped significantly. I am not suffering from my if I

myalgia. I'm SCIF sixty five and feel

much younger. My labs are great, except for my

LDL, which is high for the last two years.

My doctor isn't concerned but I would like to get it lowered.

Isabelle, I'm so glad you're participating and that you're

outsiding information in your life.

You know, many doctors are trained to look at what's normal

and anything abnormal is considered dangerous.

What happens when what's normal is characterized by illness,

suffering, and premature death? What happens when you weight of

the average average American goes up by 25 pounds, as it has

since 1960? The fact is right now, we have a

toxic food culture and we have an increasingly sick population

all over the world. In that context air, certain

level of the foundations of heart disease is considered

fruits, excluding wine (to look

normal. 70% of our seniors have high

blood pressure. So I'm glad your doctor isn't

concerned and I'm also glad you're looking to see what more

can you do. Dr. Gupta said wherever you are

today, you can be one step better tomorrow.

Health is not just the absence of disease.

It is also the presence of Vitality.

We weren't just meant to survive.

I say we were meant to thrive. We heard from Michelle who said

I want to thank you much for this summit.

Every day I listen and learn more.

Already, I have changed my diet dramatically.

I feel better every day. Stronger, healthier, calmer.

I have a six-week checkup today. I don't expect a dramatic change

but I'm looking for the to the next checkup to seat difference.

Today, I am happy I woke up feeling rested and good about

myself. Yesterday, I bought my first

organic groceries. Not only raw produce, but rice

and beans as well. Thank you again.

Michelle, my heart is warm to hear how you are applying what

you're learning and putting it into practice and stepping

fruits, excluding wine (to look

forward. You know, one of the things I

find touching is when you talked about feeling good good about

yourself. Waking up feeling rested and

more peace in your being. There is something that happens

when we say to ourselves. When we say to our beings, I

care about you. I love you.

I'm committed to your well-being, that I think brings

more joy, more peace, fulfillment and contentment into

our lives Q. eat food you know is not in your best interest,

you're sending a message that you don't care about yourself

yourself that much. That you're body isn't that

important to you. And if today's world, where

there are so many stresses and pressures we face.

When we're surrounded by demands and other people's expectations

and needs of us, sometimes it can be really hard to bust the

tide and say, I care about me. When when we sit down to eat Q.

we consciously choose food that is in our best interest.

We have the opportunity to stand for something else.

You have the opportunity with every male to -- with every meal

to say, I care about you.

You are precious. You deserve to be cared for.

When you do that, your cells, I think, respond.

I think your body feels more joy and more peace.

So while technically, you might not be able to reverse decades

fruits, excluding wine (to look

of unhealthy habbits in a day, you can feel the effects of

saying yes to your own well-being very quickly

sometimes. Darcy said a superb summit.

Thank you. Thank you.

These introduce are so deeply inspiring, highly intelligent

and pro found. As someone who has spent a good

deal and time and energy, educating myself over these past

several years, I'm amazed at how much I don't know when I listen

to this summit. Cutting edge and high-quality

information and knowledge shared is unvaluable.

Thank you, Darcy. I think we're all on a learning

journey. I think we're all learning more

every day and hopefully, this summit is accelerating that

journey for a whole a lot people.

Thank you for being one of them. Melissa says, I appreciate the

vast amount of information you are all sharing in your summit.

I have learned so much. I think of myself as such a

healthy eater, being an inspiring vegan.

When I been it, I probably eat processed food in small amounts

every day. Chips, protein bars, crackers.

All vegan, but made with shoeing assault and oil in small amounts

amounts. I am inspired to take a look at

listen in what you are providing

fruits, excluding wine (to look

and reconsider how I am really eating.

Thanks, Melissa. In a toxic food culture, it is

possible to eat way more healthfully and consciously and

still be far from optimal away. I've seen over the years, a lot

of people have gone vegan or plant-based or gone organic and

they have gotten results and improvements.

But then over the course of years or decades. Sometimes

they start to experience some real health problems want

sometimes they get disillusioned and give up on their healthy

eating lifestyle altogether saying Oh,, I guess they didn't

work. And their friends look at them and say, oh.

They did everything right and look at them.

Everything becomes sin camp you can eat a lot better not that

normal and still oba fast track to heart disease and cancer and

diabetes, even if you're in the slow lane away.

We want to stand for here is more than just doing better than

the normal. We want to look at what's

optimal at how we can really be thriving in life and that of

course is why we're here and I'm so glad that you're learn and

the going support in your path so can you take that next step.

We cannot make the perfect into the enemy of the good.

fruits, excluding wine (to look

This isn't about, you know, getting everything perfect.

It is, however, about looking at where we are, looking at what we

can learn, and moving forward from there so that we can step

forward and grow and deepen on our path of healthy eating.

Thank you for being on that path.

Thank you for sharing T. we heard from Rachel Garcia does

the Food Revolution have any recommendation for water

filters. San Jay said, we walk around

dehydrated and we misinterpret. Water is so precious.

A lot of people of course moving away from sodas, and towards

bottled water recently, and that's a wonderful step.

But a lot people also don't like all the plastic that goes into

bringing us bottled water and they don't particularly care for

the cost either. Globally, humans spend about

$100 billion a year right now on bottled water.

I wrote a Blog article posted at. That typesets you about tap

water, and what our research leadses to believe what might

be the best, easily affordable water treatment option, a

countertop, reverse osmosis, plus carbon filter based system

fruits, excluding wine (to look

made by a company called

AquaTrue. If you're looking to save

money, Kyle having really high quality water you can trust, I

think aquatrue is a great option.

And some of the thinking that went behind this at. And hopefully, this article will be

helpful to you much we heard from B.J. Peterson who said, I

became a vegetarian, after I listened to Monday's

presentations. Today, I may plan to start a

vegetable garden. Your program is changing lives.

Thank you. Excuse me.

It's B.G. Peterson. B.G. we are so grateful that you

are in this and that you're looking at growing food and

eating food that is going to help you thrive and we want to

support you on that path. So you are this segment's

Empowerment Package recipient. Our team will follow up with you

and you're going to have the MP3's, and the transcripts of

the entire Food Revolution Summit for life.

Plus more than $2,600 worth of bonuses.

It's all yours, and I hope you enjoy it and put it to good use.

I know you will. Congratulations.

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And congratulations also, to all of the people who are stepping

up and getting they Empowerment Package including some who have

gotten it very recently. Like paper freNew York.

Robert from Delaware, Julie from North Carolina, Taram from New

Jersey and Judith from Florida and everybody else who are

stepping forward. The Empowerment Package is a

wonderful way to take this home with you and live it forever.

We're sharing in a powerful event here this week and it can

also be something that we live forever and Empowerment Package

is one way to help you do that and also to be a stand for this

information in the lives of the people you love.

So congratulations to all of you who have stepped forward and

thank you also for investing in our mission.

We love offering Summit complete lie for free.

We want to share it as widely as we can.

It also takes a lot of resources

and staff time and all sorts of costs to put this on.

When you get your Empowerment Package, you're helping to fund

our work so we can carry on and keep reaching more and more

people. Thank you for investing in our

mission in that way. We heard from Cheryl who said, thank you

for addressing how we have normalized bad dietary habits

and we except them without question.

It helps me feel Les of an out cast, knowing that there are

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others who understand, how we have arrived into a fat, sick

society. What wonderful presentations

covering so many facets of how to become healthier.

I am refreshed, listening to John and Ocean and their

commitment to getting the correct information

disseminated. Thank you.

Well, thank you, Cheryl. I'm so glad you're participating

in sharing in this and it is true.

We really have normalize aid level of sickness and misery

that a lot of us think is just how it is.

We think that growing older means an ineffable journey to

decrepitude, memory loss, aches, pains, suffering and misery.

And of course, with aging, certain bodily functions do

shift and change. There is no question about it.

But the range of what is possible, there's so much more

health and Vitality possible than most realize.

I shared this on the first day of the summit.

We work out two or three times a week and he is about to turn 70.

He is one of the most strongest and leanest and vibrant guys

around. And his mind is crystal clear

and working with him is such a pleasure, as you're getting a

taste of why I say that when you listen to him in these

interviews. We can have immense Vitalities.

Thank you for learning, engaging and sharing this work.

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And now, it is time for the next segment of your Brad cast, an

interview with Dr. Mimi Guarneri on eating and living for a

healthy heart. Here we go.



Ocean: Welcome to the Food Revolution Summit, where we

explore how you can heal your body and your world with food.

This is Ocean Robbins, and I am joined by my dad and colleague,

John Robbins, in welcoming our guest Kim Williams, MD. Dr. Kim

Williams is one of the most impeccably credentialed

cardiologists in the world

today. He's a fellow and a

trustee for the American College of Cardiology, for which he

served as president in 2015 and

2016. He has board

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certifications in internal medicine, cardiovascular

diseases, nuclear medicine, nuclear cardiology and

cardiovascular computed tomography.

Dr. Williams has served on the faculty of the Pritzker School

of Medicine, the Wayne State University School of Medicine

and at Rush University Medical Center in Chicago, where he's

the head of the Cardiology Department. Dr. Williams has

also served as chairman of the Coalition of Cardiovascular

Organizations and chairman of the board of the Association of

Black Cardiologists.

John: I'm so struck by your story, your journey. You lost

your mom when you were just eight years old and your dad

when you were 17, and both of those tragedies were related to

heart disease. Then, years later, you become a

cardiologist. Sometimes, the suffering that we experience and

the loss we experience in our lives, causes us to shut

down--we close down from it. But other times, maybe we shut down

for a while, but then we make

use of it in some way. It transforms us. It gives us our

life in some real, meaningful way. What happened for you in


Dr. Guarneri: That's a great question to lead off with. As

you can imagine, it's a pretty deep, philosophical one.

Truthfully, I believe--and this

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is my belief system now--that the soul comes in to learn some

very important lessons, and in many ways, we pick our parents

to be the ones that allow our soul to do the work that it's

come here to do. I really truly believe that, because when I

look back on my life and I look back at the challenges... Very

big deal for a girl, in particular, but any child at

eight years old to lose a mom suddenly, and a dad at 17. I was

also blessed at the same time

with a very large extended

Italian family that was able to step in, able to nurture and be

there and care for me and my brothers. When I go back and I

look at it, I think our

challenges shape who we are.

Certainly, I could have taken a

different path and said, "Poor

me. Look at all these traumas that I had," and pass the bacon

and eggs kind of thing. Or we can become stronger. I was

fortunate enough to be one of those who was able to say that

it really propelled me to go on

my mission. I knew from a very early age that I would be a

physician, and this just reinforced it for me. Sometimes,

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those things that happen to us, as you know, can really make us

stronger. There is this human

spirit that has the will to live. For each of us, it's

kindled by different things.

John: It is, and I know that at one time, you were basically

doing a lot of stents, you were researching stents, you were

researching intracoronary radiation, and somehow, you went

from that to working with the Dean Ornish program, where

social support plays a key role. How did that happen?

Dr. Guarneri: It's a funny story. You obviously have done

your homework. I was really very much into the, what should we

say, the adrenaline-pumping side of interventional cardiology. I

was doing over 700 surgeries a year at one point. I remember it

very clearly. I opened the door to the cardiac catheterization

lab. I just finished a procedure and there was a man standing

behind the door who I didn't know at the time, but ended up

being Dean Ornish. He said, "Oh, I'm looking for you. I've been

told you're the one who can

conduct some research." Of course, my initial reaction was,

"Oh, this guy has a new stent or he has a new catheter of some

type, some interventional tool,

that - toy - as I would put it".

He turned to me and he said,

"Well, I want you to take these

really sick heart patients that

you can't fix with a stent, and

I want you to teach them yoga and meditation and a vegetarian

diet and put them in support groups and exercise," all the

great things we know now about the Ornish Program.

I really looked at him like he was crazy. I said, "You have the

wrong person." To his credit, he said, "No, I talked to Dr. Paul

Teirstein,"--who at that time was my mentor--"and he said you

can do this. You're the one who can pull this off." I thought,

"All right, here's a huge challenge." It was a huge

challenge, because I have to tell you, I was trained in no

lifestyle medicine at all. If you can imagine going through

three years of internal medicine training, three years of

cardiology training and one extra year of interventional

cardiology training, that's seven years and no lifestyle

medicine ever, ever taught. It's unbelievable, when you think

about it.

I started to put the program together and started bringing in

these really sick heart patients who, quite frankly, right in

front of my eyes, over the course of a year, went from out

of shape, couldn't walk, couldn't breathe, diabetic, with

chest pain, to what I like to affectionately call, at the end

of the day, "lean, mean fighting machines." To watch this

transformation just opened up my

eyes. I said, "Oh my God." It became very clear to me that we

have a science of disease. This

stent is good for this blood vessel, and this drug is good

for this stent, and so on, and we apply that in healthcare. But

we also have a science of health that we're not applying at all.

The reason we don't apply the science of health to our

patients is you have thousands and thousands of physicians who

haven't been trained in this area.

John: You weren't, either, in

your long years of medical training. There was really no

lifestyle component, I'm hearing. In 1990, 27 years ago,

the official guidelines put

forth by the American College of Cardiology and the American

Heart Association for treating people who had had heart attacks

was 38 pages long. In all of those 38 pages, lifestyle

measures were mentioned once in a single, brief paragraph. Now,

fast forward to last year, in 2016, where the annual

conference of the American

College of Cardiology featured, for the first time, an intensive

focus on lifestyle medicine. The

presenters and panelists were American College of Cardiology

president, Dr. Kim Williams, who spoke on the heart benefits of a

vegan diet, Dr. Dean Ornish, who we were just mentioning, who

spoke on the topics of love and loneliness and connection, and

Dr. Caldwell Esselstyn, who presented on nutrition and heart

disease. Mimi, clearly something is changing. How do you view

this change? What do you think we can expect to see in the

coming years? How do you feel about all this?

Dr. Guarneri: Well, first of all, yay! And it's about time.

Because when you think about it,

John, it's absolutely

ridiculous. All the things that cause cardiovascular

disease--from diabetes to high blood pressure to toxins in the

environment to stress and

anxiety and depression and all of this--all of these things are

lifestyle issues, yet we have continued for the last--how many

years?--to start to treat these things with just a drug. Ill to

the pill. You have high blood pressure? Take this pill. You

have high cholesterol? Take that pill. A lot of that has been the

training of physicians. That's how they're trained. You name

it, you blame it, and you tame it with a drug or a surgery.

That's the teaching model. Now, for the first time, we've

reached a point where we have a country that is morbidly obese.

We rank number one in obesity in the world and number one in

diabetes. If you just look at the sequela of obesity alone,

from heart disease to blood pressure to sleep apnea to

erectile dysfunction to dementia to fatty liver disease... The

list goes on. We have all of these things that

are lifestyle-related diseases.

We have people like Esselstyn

and like Ornish who have been

shouting in the wilderness for years. Even though this is all

out there, at the end of the

day, we still need to get these cardiologists trained and all

the doctors trained, which is why I'm president to the Academy

of Integrative Health and


We had over 1,000 participants at our conference here in

October, all health care providers, mainly physicians,

saying, "I want to do things differently." We have to get

people trained, and we have to find a way to pay for it.

We need the training of the new breed of health care providers,

which we're working very hard to do, and we also need money that

is put into prevention and lifestyle medicine and put into

the creation of health, as opposed to just treating

disease. There are a lot of steps that have to occur. That's

why I'm so glad you have the audience that you have, because

I believe that people can take control of their own health and

the health of their heart and their brain and everything else

is in their hands. It starts in their kitchen. That's powerful


John: When you say it starts in their kitchen, you're referring,

of course, to what we eat, what we put in our mouths, and how we

fuel our bodies. You've said that if you had to pick the

world's perfect diet, it would be a vegetarian or vegan diet.

Now, there are some vegetarians and vegans who eat very

healthfully and get a lot of phytonutrients and

phytochemicals and lots of fresh

vegetables and so forth. But there are plenty of vegetarians

and vegans who eat a lot of bagels and macaroni and cheese

and pizza and, basically, their diet is not much of an

improvement, if any, over the standard American diet. If you

were going to design an optimum diet in terms of heart health,

what would it be? Dr. Guarneri: Well, traditional

Mediterranean Diet is going to give you lots of green leafy

vegetables, escarole, broccoli and cabbage and all your

cruciferous vegetables and lentils and beans and

legumes--all of these wonderful things. Now, you can say, "Gee,

Mediterranean Diet, that sounds Italian to me. Well, I'm going

to have exactly what you just described: pasta and cheese,

pizza and cheese, and so on." I really like to say a high

phytonutrient diet, which is the colors of the rainbow, filled

with lots of nuts, seeds, beans,

legumes, green vegetables, cruciferous vegetables, low

glycemic vegetables in general, and healthy forms of fat. You

have your small amounts of olive oil, olives, and again, your

nuts and so on. I really try to

encourage my patients to get healthy vegetarian protein

sources into their diet. One of the challenges with this is that

people have not been trained to cook a vegetarian diet, which is

why over at my place, Pacific

Pearl, we have a cooking school. People have to learn how to

sprout beans. They have to learn

how to cook with a crock-pot or with a wok.

[I also recommend] small volumes of food. We eat way too much in

this country--too much volume and too much volume of the wrong

things, like simple sugar, simple carbohydrates. I tell my

patients, "If you want a carb, let's go for some quinoa. Let's

try some quinoa. Let's try to do some baking with buckwheat.

Let's learn how to mix and match different types of healthier,

low glycemic grains and carbs, if you need them. I frequently

have to have a protein smoothie

or green smoothie with some extra protein in it to make sure

they're getting the protein that they need, but you can

absolutely, 100%, be a healthy, healthy vegetarian or a healthy,

healthy vegan. You absolutely can.

John: Well, I hear you saying to lean into the non-starchy

vegetables and lean into the low glycemic veggies and grains and

whole grains if you want to be

lean and healthy and vibrant. I asked you what might be an

optimum diet in terms of heart health, but really, the same

diet--I think, and I believe you would agree with me, but I want

to check this out--the same diet that would be optimum in terms

of heart health is also very,

very similar, if not identical, to the optimum in terms of

cancer prevention, in terms of

dementia or Alzheimer's prevention, in terms of

preventing all of the lifestyle

diseases that plague us today.

Dr. Guarneri: You're 100% right.

And you know what's so interesting to me? When you

think of the vascular system--blood vessels--they go

from the top of your head to the tips of your toes. What's good

for the heart is good for the kidneys, is good for the brain,

and so on. It's fascinating to me to watch what's happening in

neurology now. With the heart, we started with heart attack,

let's mobilize the cath lab, let's do the stents, let's do

all of that. Then about 20 years later, the neurologist who said,

"Oh, we can't do anything for stroke," now is saying ... They

call it now "brain attack" when

someone comes into the emergency room and they start advanced

intervention, get the clot out of the brain and so on, like we

have been doing in the heart forever.

Now what's happening, if you read Dale Bredesen's work, which

I think is great, you see that the same thing. He's applying

the same principles we applied to the heart to the brain, and

he's showing that you can reverse dementia. This is very

powerful. He's looking at the same exact things that we've

been looking at for years, homocysteine levels, fasting

insulin levels, diabetes, hemoglobin A1C, heavy metals,

copper, zinc, copper-zinc ratios, and so on. He has a list

of all the 30 checkpoints that he does to get people to reverse

their dementia. It's the same list we use for the heart, so

you're right on with this. John: Mimi, you mentioned Dale

Bredesen's work with reversing dementia. I've just actually

been looking at that recently, and I want to tell our listeners

a little about it because it's so groundbreaking. Dale

Bredesen, as you know, Mimi, heads the Mary S. Easton Center

for Alzheimer's Research at UCLA, and in 2014 he published a

truly landmark study in the journal Aging. What made his

study so stunning is that he took people with Alzheimer's

disease, put them on his program, and nine out of ten of

them showed dramatically improved cognitive functioning

within six months. What makes

this amazing is there is no drug that can even slow the disease

progression, and here he is showing that his program can

actually reverse Alzheimer's disease.

Our listeners may be wondering at this point what his program

entails. In his program, Dale Bredesen asks people with

Alzheimer's to eliminate all

simple carbohydrates, gluten and processed food, eat more

vegetables and fruits and wild fish, do some basic meditation

and yoga, sleep 7-8 hours a night, take certain supplements,

namely melatonin, vitamin B12, vitamin D3, fish oil and

coenzyme Q10, pay attention to their oral hygiene and use an

electric flosser and electric toothbrush, go 12 hours between

dinner and breakfast and go 3 hours between dinner and bedtime

and exercise for a minimum of 30 minutes, four to six days per

week. That's essentially the Bredesen

program, and it has been shown to reverse cognitive decline in

people with Alzheimer's disease in 90% of the participants in

his program Mimi, more and more people now

are seeing that the brain is actually part of the body, the

heart is not a silo, that we are integrated systems, that what we

eat affects every organ and every cell in our bodies. And

now we're seeing that cognitive impairment and dementia can

effectively be treated with lifestyle intervention and

lifestyle treatments. This was unheard of until recently.

Drug companies have been

spending billions of dollars looking for a drug that could

just arrest Alzheimer's symptoms, and now we're

beginning to find that lifestyle programs can reverse these

symptoms. To me, this is real healing. And as you mentioned,

Mimi, Bredesen's program is very similar to the Ornish program,

which has been proven to reverse heart disease.

Dr. Guarneri: Right, and when Ornish did his work on prostate

cancer, Gleason 6 prostate cancer, and using a vegan diet,

lifestyle change, down-regulating 500 cancer

genes. Part of it is we now have the language of science to

understand this. Years ago, before we had genetic arrays,

before we had fMRIs, we didn't really even have this technology

to understand, for example, what's going on in the brain

with meditation? What's going on in the brain when we put

acupuncture needles into someone, and what's going on, on

a genetic level when someone learns to meditate or when

someone does a lifestyle change program, like Dean studied with

the prostate cancer men? We're now starting to have that

language of science that we can apply to this for the people who

still need their left brain to

see things like the genetic arrays changing and so on. They

still need to see that type of stuff to believe what I think.

Quite frankly, it's just common sense. I really don't think we

need to spend $5 million studying organic blueberries. I

think it's insane. That's just my personal thought.

John: Well, unless that's what it takes to convince...

Dr. Guarneri: Right. That's my point. That's what it takes

convince them--to convince the medical audience--that we have

to change. But we have the science. We do, honestly. Every

day, the science is growing and growing and growing, but that

science needs to be part of medical school education. We

need to train our young docs

differently, and we need to value... I know when I went to

cardiology training for all those years, there was something

called cardiac rehab. [The attitude was,] "Oh, that's a

place where people went after they had their heart attack." It

was considered soft medicine. Oh, if you were the rehab

doctor, you were like the soft

medicine doctor. No one paid any attention to you. You had the

room in the corner. We need to change what we value in this

country. We still value the

surgeon more than we value the lifestyle change doctor. That's

a big issue. John: It is, and that valuing

shows up in reimbursement, and

that then creates perverse incentives. I'm thinking about

your journey because you were trained as so many physicians

today still are. There was not lifestyle medicine in your

training. You spent years as an intervention cardiologist. You

spent most of your days propping open arteries with metal

sleeves. But at some point, Mimi, it obviously occurred to

you to ask why these people's arteries were blocked in the

first place. How did the question arise, and what was the

process you went through to make the radical changes that you

made? Dr. Guarneri: Well, for me, part

of it was starting to do the Ornish research. But the other

part of it was what I call the revolving door. For practical

purposes, when you put stents in and do intervention, it's like

you're a hired gun to do a procedure. Literally. I'd walk

in in the morning and I'd see the list of people, and the

names would start to repeat themselves over and over and

over again. That's the first aha: "Why is Mr. So-and-So

coming back with new blockage? Why is someone who's just had a

bypass back with blockage in their new bypass five years

later? What's the disconnect here?"

Then I would look at those

patients that I was treating in

cardiac cath lab during the day, and you know how we go around

and make rounds at night? I would make rounds, and I kid you

not, they would be eating roast beef and mayo sandwiches on

white bread. They would have Ensure on their tray. Diabetics

would have mashed potatoes and beef stroganoff--all this stuff.

I thought, "Oh my God." There's such a disconnect between what

we just did--this high-level intervention--and now this

person goes up to the recovery room or the ICU or wherever they

are, and they're getting the

roast beef and mayo sandwich on white bread and Ensure. And what

does that tell the patients? That says to the patients, "Oh,

this must be okay. I got it in the hospital."

Then you have nutritionists who,

I'm sorry to say--at least when I was spending a lot of time in

the hospital--were teaching

people things like--and I kid you not--switch your bacon from

regular bacon to Canadian bacon. Use lard sparingly. I remember

looking at these handouts, and I was going, "Oh my God." This aha

moment occurred of disconnect between how aggressive we were

on the intervention side and how poor we were on the prevention

side. I remember going to the chief of cardiology at the time,

and I said, "Listen, we need to

create a lifestyle change prevention program that's as

aggressive as our intervention program, because they have to be

equally as strong." That was an aha moment for me, walking

around and seeing this. It was

even scarier when I started to

speak to this and lecture on it. When I would go and make my ICU

rounds, the nurses would see me coming, and they would hide the

plates of food. They would cover

the food with napkins.

They'd say, "Oh, Dr. Guarneri's coming. Hide the food." They

would think it was funny, but then I would go into the nursing

station and there would be cinnamon buns and boxes of

chocolate and Coca Cola, and that took me to a whole other

realization, "Oh my God - We have to train our practitioners

about health. They're not healthy themselves."

They say that when you're ready,

the teacher appears, and the teachers started to appear in

all these different forms, from

Dr. Ornish to reading. I became an avid reader in this area and

just observing everything around me. It's like all of the sudden

my eyes opened, and I thought, "I can't not do something about

this." That was the big piece of the journey for me.

John: Well, I'm so glad that you couldn't not do something about

it. I know you undertook the Ornish program. You participated

in it, not merely as a cardiologist, but right along

with your patients. You had been eating peperoni pizza, you

wrote, and you became a

vegetarian. You began doing yoga. You began meditating. You

learned new ways to manage and lessen stress. Your cholesterol

numbers, without medication, dropped considerably, I

understand. Then it had this immense effect your cardiology

practice. Meeting Dean Ornish, starting to study his work,

going through the program... It

was a life-transforming event for you.

Dr. Guarneri: It was, and it also made me aware that if

the... I'll just use a physician as an example. If a physician is

going to buy in and understand this, they have to do it and

practice it themselves. When I was asked to do the research, I

knew nothing about this. I said to myself, "I have to learn

meditation. I have to learn yoga. I have to learn to be a

vegetarian. How am I going to teach my patients a vegetarian

diet if I'm not a vegetarian? How can I teach my patients to

meditate if I don't meditate?" That became the transformation

for me: watching my patients and then watching myself. My

cholesterol went from 320, which is shocking, to 100. I have a

total cholesterol of 100.

Then I thought, "Okay, I can eat a little bit more fat," because

I did more than the strict 10% fat vegetarian diet, which was

the research at the time. I said, "Well, I'm going to add

back in some olive oil and some nuts--I don't have heart

disease, and I'm not trying to reverse heart disease." I never

added back in beef, pork, lamb, chicken or turkey ever, ever,

ever. I have learned this, and in the learning process, that's

when I became a teacher for my patients. I think that's a

critical piece to

transformation. That's what happened to me--I went through

this experience myself. John: I'm thinking how often we

are affected by the people around us in deep ways. I'm

remembering what you said earlier about how you got

through the tragedies of your earlier life, which was partly

through the support of your social network and extended

family. I know in the Ornish program, one of the key things

is it's not just a one-on-one meeting with the doctor--it's a

social support group. Sometimes, we're conditioned to think

something is scientifically valid only when we can measure

it in a test tube or in a lab.

Something as fuzzy or ephemeral as human relationships can seem

touchy-feely--hardly the stuff of sound science. But there

really is a great deal of

sophisticated research that's confirmed the healing powers of

friendship and love and positive relationships.

Dr. Guarneri: You know what? That is the secret glue. That's

the secret sauce. Imagine this:

if you're a person who's just had a heart attack or a stent,

you're puttering along in your life. One day, you get chest

pain and you get whisked off to the hospital. Now you're told

you have coronary disease. You

have this quick procedure--a stent, whatever it is--you go

home, and you're on five new medications. It's a

get-you-in-and-get-you-out, and no one is really... They give

you some handouts, and they say, "Okay, eat this way. Do this."

You go home and you are in shock. Nine out of ten people

are in shock, thinking, "What just happened to me?"

Now, you take those individuals,

and you leave them home alone--which, as we always say,

the "i" in "illness" is isolation--leave them home alone

to try to figure it out on their own. They see the physician

every three or four months if they're lucky, and they're not

getting any instruction in lifestyle medicine. Or you can

take those same people and do what we did when we did the

research. You bring them in and put them in a group. We call

them "cohorts," which means "band of warriors." We put them

in a group of 20 or so together, and instantly, you have 20 new

friends, and you're able to tell your story. As one patient said

to me, "I thought I was in bad shape until I heard Joe's

story." All of the sudden, now, there's this bond, there's this

camaraderie. There's this support that goes on. That is

absolute magic.

It was the one thing we really couldn't... We didn't have a

number to measure at the time we did the research, but we know

that those groups that bonded, that had that social support,

came in three times a week, exercised together, cooked

together, did yoga and meditation together. It became

family. Everyone knew everyone. It was absolutely beautiful. If

someone had a health

challenge--let's say someone had recurrent chest pain and they

had to go to the cardiac cath lab--guess what? They had ten

people going with them. They weren't going alone. They had

people visiting them in the room, sitting with them. The

whole experience became different. It was totally

healing. Again, this part of the whole

Ornish program was eye-opening for me. As a physician, I

thought, "Why aren't we teaching

people in groups? Why aren't we

empowering people to teach each other?" Quite frankly, I

wouldn't wait around for a hospital to figure it out,

because a hospital's business is sick care. Let's face it. If you

have a heart attack or stroke, you need a pacemaker. You need

to be in a hospital. That's what

hospitals are good at: acute care. But I think we need

community-based health programs. We need to change the way

communities think, whether it's a meatless Friday, meatless

Wednesday, getting communities back to breast feeding, having

communities that have organic

farms, or having people walking together. The list is endless of

what we can do at a grassroots

level for health. John: Well, one of the places

where I first really got the medical value of social support

was a study that I read. It was done at Case Western Reserve

University in Cleveland. I want to describe it for a moment and

see what you think of it. The researchers there studied almost

10,000 married men who had no prior history of angina. Angina,

of course, is chest pain that can indicate heart disease. The

researchers found that those men who had high levels of risk

factors--they had elevated cholesterol, they had high blood

pressure, they had diabetes, they had electrocardiogram

abnormalities--those men were more than 20 times as likely to

develop angina during the next five years. Most amazingly, the

researchers found that those men who answered yes to the simple

question, "Does your wife show you her love?"--that's how they

worded it--those men had substantially less angina, even

when they had high levels of all those risk factors.

Dr. Guarneri: That's exactly right.

John: Mimi, as a cardiologist, what do you make of findings

like that?

Dr. Guarneri: Well, I think you have to look at the whole

picture, right? It's how you live your life, who you live

your life with, what is your thought system, what is your

attitude--all of these things. If you're in a nurturing, loving

environment versus being in an environment that, as some people

put it to me, "I go home and I'm walking on eggshells." Their

relationship is tenuous. They don't feel loved. They feel

anxious, actually. I see this a lot on the cardiovascular side,

especially when people become workaholics and they never go

home because home is not a pleasant place to be. There are

all sorts of issues like that. John: I remember Andy Weil, the

physician and bestselling author, telling of a man with

severe chronic hypertension whose relationship with his wife

was filled with stress and tension. The amazing thing was

that the day the man's wife filed for divorce, his blood

pressure normalized. It just suddenly dropped to a healthy

level and stayed there, without drugs.

Mimi, we have so many cases and we have so many studies showing

that the quality of our relationships really influences

the quality of our health. Dr. Guarneri: Dean outlines all

of this in his book on love and support and intimacy. All of

these studies are in there--that this is critically important for

health. You need to be in an environment where you are, as I

like to put it, at peace. We all have challenges in our lives,

but can we find that inner peace within our day-to-day? Or are we

living in an environment that is, for lack of a better word,

toxic? That environment could be a work environment, or a home

environment, and so on.

John: Mimi, when you speak of the importance of finding inner

peace and also the fact that some of us are living in toxic

family or work environments, it brings up a question that I

think a lot of us are living

with. We have a lot of science telling us that our health and

our health habits are likely to match those of our closest

friends, which implies that it's very important to surround

ourselves with people who model healthy habits. Mimi, what can

we do if there are people in our families or in our circle of

friends who are alcoholics or drug addicts or who just don't

take good care of themselves and who eat unhealthy foods

consistently? Dr. Guarneri: Let's face it--we

all have these people in our family. We all have people who

are challenges in our life. We have to make some choices. The

first thing we need to do is stabilize our own ship. We need

to do something in our daily life that helps us to maintain

our inner peace. What can that be? That can be exercising in

nature, learning to meditate--which I think is the

most powerful tool that anyone

can do--or saying centering prayers, if that's something

that you prefer. Some path toward inner peace. It doesn't

matter to me what path you take,

but what's important is that you go deep--that you don't just

dabble, saying, "Oh, I'll do three minutes of mindfulness and

two minutes of transcendental

meditation." That doesn't work. So we know that to get to that

path of inner peace, a little

bit of knowledge. Information leads to knowledge, but practice

is what leads to pure transformation. That's the first


Then we have to look at our lives and ask, "Does this

individual pull me up, or does this individual pull me down?

How do I feel in the presence of these people?" Sometimes we have

to make hard decisions. We have to choose who we want in our

lives. Like for me, I surround myself with a very strong

spiritual community. Those are the people I enjoy being around.

You have to find where your tribe is and where you feel

good. Quite frankly, sometimes it means limiting communication

or disconnecting from people that don't support us.

For those people who have family members who have addictions,

unfortunately, you can offer to help when the time is right and

when they're ready. But by and large, we cannot change people.

We can only change ourselves. We can't be responsible for other

people. We can offer our help, but they have to be wiling to

help themselves. They have to be willing to take the steps that

are necessary. That's a hard

lesson. We all want to be in

service with people, but sometimes it's not even in their

best interest if they're not

ready to make a change.

John: We sometimes have to limit

our exposure to people who are toxic to us in some way, but,

meanwhile, find new connections and improve the connections we

have with the people who are

part of our tribe. I'm hearing that your tribe is really

important to you. I think our tribes, by whatever term we

use--our extended communities, our extended families, our

networks of support, the people in our lives who care about

us--they care about the same things as we do and that we can

care about and feel effective and loving towards - those

things are just medically--medically--really,

really important. Dr. Guarneri: I think, at the

end of the day, it's everything. If you look at some of these

communities where people live

for a long time--what we call the Blue Zones--by and large,

they're eating correctly, but they have a real sense of

community. There's a community

spirit. There's a "let's go and sit out and everyone in the

piazza in the mid-afternoon." There's a sense of connection.

There's a purpose in life. When you see certain cultures where

the oldest are paired with the youngest... The oldest, the

grandparents, have a purpose in life, as opposed to what we tend

to do in our culture, which is as people get older, they're

home alone. All this wisdom is sitting home alone. That doesn't

serve our culture, and that doesn't serve our wisdom

keepers, who are the elderly. I

think that there's a fundamental breakdown in our culture in this

way. So, we need a new tribe. It may

be a tribe of your primary family, or it may be a tribe of

a newly created family, whether it's your spiritual family or in

the case when we did the Ornish

research, it was our cohort family. This, to me, is the

sauce. It's the secret sauce that is most important in the

healing process.

John: Mimi, I find it rare and precious in life when I find

someone who is truly wise in the ways of the human heart, and I

think it's particularly rare to find those qualities in a

cardiologist. There's something about medical training and

medical practice today that is dehumanizing. But your caring

and your compassion for people is so strong, and I find that to

be precious. If we're ever going to have a medical system that

upholds the health of the human heart in all of its wondrous

dimensions, it will be thanks to

you and to others like you, Mimi. It's really been a real

pleasure to have this conversation with you, and on

behalf of Ocean and myself and of everyone involved in the food

revolution, I thank you for your beautiful heart, your wonderful

work and for being with us today.

Dr. Guarneri: Thank you. Thank you for having me. I just love,

John, being able to talk about what I truly believe is

fundamentally important. Thank you.

Ocean: We've been sharing such a beautiful conversation with Dr.

Mimi Guarneri, president of the Academy of Integrative Health

and Medicine and author of The Heart Speaks. Mimi, your work

combines brilliant intellectual understanding with deep love and

understanding of the whole person. In that, you bring us

all closer to what I think is real wisdom. We're so grateful

for your loving leadership, for sharing your wisdom with all of

our listeners, and for your partnerships in the food


... Ocean: Thank you much to

Dr. Mimi Guarneri and to my dad and colleague, John Robbins for

that deeply heartening conversation.

To express your opinions on what you've been hearing, and to find

out what other people are saying, post and engage in the

comments section at the bottom of our broadcast page.

Use the refresh button so can you see the most recent

comments. Our next presentation will be an

interview with American College of Cardiology fellow and trustee


Rusch university Medical Center, Department of cardiology

head, Dr. Kim Williams, one of the most prominent and

recognized cardiologist of our times.

Tell start at the top of the hour in approximately 14

minutes. So now I'm going to respond to

some of the comment that is have come insofar and offer a few of

my own reflections. We heard from Laura Beth, who

said my husband cleared out two blocked arteries with Dr. Dean

Ornish's "Reversing heart disease" and also lost 60 pounds

in 2009. Heart doctor can't believe our

lab numbers are so great. We now follow Dr. Fuhrman's

nutritarian's lifestyle. Last checkup, no plaque on any

of the arteries. I've been told, I have a heart

of a 40-year-old, not 66. I wish more people would

realize, that drugs like Statens are not needed when we choose a

healthy diet. Thank you, Laura.

Thank you for sharing that heartening, inspiring story.

We hear these stories so often and it light this fire if me

that says, you know what, we have got to share this.

There are team people suffering and die Chicago they don't need

to be. Korean said, my cousin posted on

Facebook, he's having neuropathy and leg pain and discussed with

his children that if he got his leg ampity Tated, he can be

bionic and get cuts and line at amusement parks.

I've lost wait, and I'm not a slave to insulin resistance.

Of course, I told him my story and told him to change his diet,

but I'm not sure if I am getting through.

I will keep trying to inform him to listen to your would you feel

summits. Thank you for helping me to

spread such an important message.

Thank you for sharing your story.

I'm so glad what you you were able to put what you learned

from last year's summit into practice and that you're

experiencing these result and I thank you for sharing with your

cousin. My heart break when is I think

about, you know, the suffering he's going through and even when

he's looking on the bright side and maybe somewhat resigned to T

I appreciate you're holding out to a possibility that he could

have both of his legs, and the health and wellness he deserves

and I'm sure, he ultimately wants.

We heard from Linda who has wow, each day, more great speakers

and great information. We've been eating plant based,

inspired by you and your book since 1995.

I agree that eating better generates a feeling of

well-being, more energy, more creativity.

I am running my own gal gallery, painting, framing, dealing with

customers every day. I'm 75 years old. Even as an

example of what's possible. My family and associates don't

adopt these ideas. How Do I share this without

sounding preachy? Well, this is something that

comes up a lot for so many people.

Because as we learn and as we become informed, we naturally

want to share what we're learning with the people we love

and yet, how can we do that effectively?

First of all, Linda, and Korean before you, thanks so much for

care -- -- Korean, thank

coCorrine, thanks so much for sharing, and sharing is

one of the gifts you get with the Empowerment Package and

sharing that with the people you love.

You can also share specific books like the book my dad has

written like the Food Revolution or books by our speakers.

Or specific videos like "Forks over Knives" upon and many

resource that is have inspired and educated people.

You don't have to write the book yourself or give the talk

yourself. You can give resource.

Some sometimes these movies can be truly life changing.

I want to talk about some of the underlying principles that will

help you to be a positive influence on other people.

I think it's of critical importance that we don't only

talk to people who agree us or think like us.

If we want to create culture change, we need to live our

message and many of us also need to communicate it and we may

need to communicate it to a variety of people.

Some of whom have other ideas. Remember, that people think the

way they do and have come to understand the world they have,

for reasons and that doesn't many they're right.

It doesn't mean they're logical even.

But it does mean that it serves a purpose in their way of making

sense of the world and this world can be overwhelming for

all of us. So I often reflect that people

tend to think that you're highly intelligent when you agree with

them. If you can build some rapport or

connection and if you can communicate thoughtfully and

clearly, then you may be able to express a certain amount of

variance from what they already believe and potentially be scene

as new innovative or interesting.

But if you go too far out there, if you contradict too high a

percentage of what people already believe, then they may

see you as crazy. So I think effective influence

has a lot to do with knowing the values and the belief systems

and the fundamental organizing understandings of your audience.

Sometimes one of the greatest keys to influencing someone is

actually to listen to them. to

hear their fears, their concerns, their struggles and

what rationalizations underlie their choices.

When people feel heard, they're more likely to feel often to

listening to. Truly hearing them can be an act

of generosity, that can actually awaken in another person, an

opens to listening. Just because you listen,

doesn't.that someone will actually feel hurt.

So use your own best judgment here.

But the bottom line I want to convey is if you want to

influence someone, you will be infinitely more effective if you

have the ability to understand them and build connection with

them. Mary said hi, everyone.

Such a great summit. I'm finding contradictions

between some of the expert who is teach and share the Whole

Foods plant-based lifestyle. Some condemn olive oil and nuts.

Today, Dr. Guarneri applauds the met terranean diet that

implements these foods. It's hard to pass on information

to friends when they share conflicting information.

It is true, some variations among our speakers, in terms of

their perspectives and messages.

They're speaking to different audiences.

I think that everyone speaking in this Summit would agree with

a lot of things like we need to eat less shoeing A less

processed foods, less chemicals, less white flour and processed

oils and we need to eat more real, whole, natural foods and a

whole a lot more vegetables and fruits.

The Mediterranean diset clearly, better than the norm.

And it's a great step in the right direction. It's a diet

that is based mostly around plant foods and mostly around

whole and natural foods. Now, there are many speakers in

this summit who would agree that it's a step in a positive

direction and for many people, a very, very important one, and I

think we can also see that there are more steps that we can also

take. I don't know that anybody would

suggest that the Mediterranean diet is necessarily, the most

optimal for all people. I believe there are speakers in

this summit. I don't think there are any

speakers in this summit who would condemn nuts.

There are countless study that is correlate nuts and seeds

consumption with positive benefits.

It could be that olive oil or coconut oil and other process

organic oils can be included in a healthy diet.

Doesn't necessarily make them healthy foods per se.

The fact of the matter S oils are processed foods.

Any time you take a whole food and process it to remove certain

parts of it, you're getting a processed food.

In the case of oil, like look at olives.

They're very different than olive oil.

You're losing the fiber, lots of vitamins and minerals that were

in the whole plant. So we don't want to make perfect

into the enemy of the good here. We take a step at a time.

Wherever we are, we look at how we can move forward.

For a lot people, the Mediterranean diset a wonderful

step tahas saved a lot of lives and I think we can also go

further and do more. And we're looking at what would optimal

be. And excellent be. How can we make food into

medicine. It isn't just cutting out the bad stuff, it's saying

yes to the very, very best. We heard from Christine who has

network the late 9s, I was working with people who were

quite I wouldly when my parents both needed massive bypass

surgeries, one right after the other.

The extremely elderly people I worked with said, L you know

what that means. That will be you in a few years.

I said oh, no. We know too much now.

I will never have the health problems my health parents are

suffering through am every day we make choices.

Can I see from this year's summit, I am missing the mark.

It's more than just cutting out dare and he meat, and avoiding

GMs. I love what ocean is saying

about getting better. Thank you again for another

eye-opening summit. It's amazing, there is so much to

learn. I can't drink water from a

plastic bottle. I can take the difference and

the plastic gives us a sore throat.

What does that tell us how safe it is.

Thank you, Christine, for never stopping your learning journey.

Learning, discovering, and sharing evermore, every day.

One of the things that I love about the work they get to do

and that we get to do is all the incredible stories of

transformation that we hear every single day.

I think these stories can be so healing because they give

affirmation to the healthy and they give hope to those of us

who are struggling. They point the way forward for

so many who are suffering. There is hope and profound

healing is not only possible. It is actually common.

Michelle, age 48 from linden, Washington, participated in one

of our summits and she recorded a few words of hope they want to

share with you now. This is what Michelle had to

say. Michelle: My name is Michelle

Corea. This is my Food Revolution

story. I am a 46-year-old mother of

three teenaged daughters and wife to be incredible husband.

Full of energy, happiness, Vitality and love.

But it wasn't always this way. I was a typical mother who was

always so busy taking a of everyone that, I often put

myself last. Our lives were so busy, we ate a

lot of processed processed and publicked

foods and items that I thought were healthy, because they were

marketed that way. I had a hip that was sore and

hands that ached 24/7 from the that's in my knuckles.

I was still happy and full of love but I knew I had to make

changes if I wanted to be a healthy role model for our

daughters. The Food Revolution Summit

really opened my eye to the depth of the issues surrounding

our food supply system. I found out how big companies

are pushing their agendas throughout government and their

agendas are best for their bottom line, but not for our

health. I feel angry when I think of all

the things I had been feeding my family, that were advertised as

healthy. They were making us sick.

Once I discovered the truth, I made big changes and I have

never looked back. Amazingly, the arthritis in my

hands stopped hurting. My hips didn't wake me up from

soreness. I lost a little of weight.

My skin looks healthy, I feel incredible.

Lighter, Les sluggish, more vibrant, more alive and at

peace. My choices aren't causing harm

to animals, workers and the environment.

My family joins me. And this is has had an impact on

our over all health. I filled my body with all the

goodness plants provide, and I also took up exercising and I'm

now one of those people who regularly exy exercises no

letter what, 3-5 days of week. I purchased two years of the

Food Revolution Summit and it has been an important part of my

your Honor to better health. There is so much useful

information to absorb and depth of the interviewees is amazing.

I have listened to the presentations many times, with

each listening, I gain an incredible amount of knowledge.

The food revolution summit just might change your life, too.

You will come away better educated to make important

decisions for yourself. You will become aware of

questions you should be asking that you never knew you should

S. you will become a voice to stand up for our environment,

food supply system and everyone involved F. you listen, you will

become healthier. I know I V.

Ocean: Thank you much to Michelle for sharing that

healing journey. We're just so heartened by the

stories. There are so many stories of

hope and possibility. We heard from Donna who said

your information is valuable to everybody who wants to change.

I've had high cholesterol, diabetes, tachycardia, and

thyroid problems. My lipids are considerrability

improved. I've recently changed part of my

diet and things have deponent much better.

My doctor took me off of a lot of my medicine.

Tomorrow I'm having a diagnostic angiocatheter on my heart.

I won't be able to log into the summit later that day. is it

possible to catch the information later on?

I don't want to lose any of your valuable information.

I just had a



He grew up on the south side of Chicago where access to

healthcare was a struggle for him and for his family. Since


is it true that you are the first African-American, the

first former tennis pro, and the first vegan to be the president

of American cardiology? >> Dr. Williams: Interesting

enough, that's true on all accounts.

Nuclear cardiologist, that is not true.

George beller in 1990 was the first nuclear cardiologist to

be. I happen to be the second.

John Robbins: You're breaking ground and are a pioneer in

many, many respects. We appreciate that. I'm going to

talk with you in depth about what people can do to increase

the health of their hearts and to prevent cardiovascular


Statins are the biggest selling drug, or the biggest selling

class of pharmaceutical compounds, of all time. Annual

sales now are in excess of $22 billion. The most popular

statin, Lipitor, is the most financially successful drug of

all time. Statins have obviously and

unquestionably saved lives, but I must say it gives me pause. I

want to know how you feel about this. When I see cardiologists

eating steak dinners and then taking statins and then telling

their patients it's fine to do

that, too, I think, wouldn't it be a lot better in most cases to

eat a whole foods, plant strong diet--to get plenty of

plant-based nutrition--and so not need to take these pills in

the first place? Dr. Williams: Indeed. You've

really hit the nail on the head. I like to make analogies, if

they're not too annoying. I like to refer to statins, really, as

duct tape. There are situations where you really cannot survive

without duct tape. You've got a situation that's occurred, and

you can get around the problem. How about stopping the problem

from happening in the first place or treating the real cause

instead of just putting a Band-Aid on it, no matter how

great a Band-Aid it happens to be?

John Robbins: I'm grateful for statins and the many advances in

heart disease treatment that have lowered the death rate from

hypertension and from heart attacks a lot in the last 30

years. But with you and with our audience, I'm sure we all want

to do more in the way of prevention. I'm sure you're

familiar with the work of Drs. Caldwell Esselstyn and Dean

Ornish, yes?

Dr. Williams: Indeed. They're good friends, and they're

luminaries who have really moved the field forward in very many

ways. If I could be a little more specific, I would say that

they have been leaders in getting the mind of medicine a

little bit more away from just mopping up the floor instead of

turning off the faucet. That is, we should be able to actually

take this plaque problem that we've had, which is in epidemic

proportions killing more Americans than any other disease

for nearly 100 years since 1918, and actually make the plaque

regress. It's interesting that so far we've talked about the

three things that have been

shown to regress plaque. That is statins--but only in very high

doses of the very, very strongest statins--the Esselstyn

diet, and the Ornish diet. And why not make it all go away?

John Robbins: Well, the Ornish diet is, as far as I know, the

only diet that's ever been proven in randomized control

trials to reverse the progression of coronary heart

disease using direct measures of coronary atherosclerosis and

myocardial perfusion--the blood flow to the heart. Dr. Esselstyn

often says that based on

Ornish's work and his own careful research, "Heart disease

is a paper tiger that need never exist, and if it exists, it need

never progress." What I want to ask you, Kim, is this: When you

get right down to it, how much heart disease do you think we

could actually expunge if we were, as a nation, to shift to a

whole foods plant strong diet and make other basic lifestyle

changes, such as quitting smoking?

Dr. Williams: I like to say, and it may be an overestimate, that

we would have some issues in cardiovascular medicine, such as

congenital heart disease, where there would be some acquired

heart disease, and I think our valvular issues may actually

increase over time because of the longevity that would occur

if everyone was a thin, exercising vegan--the TEVs, as I

call them [LAUGHS]. But I would probably have to retire 30 of

our 35 cardiologists here at Rush if this were to happen

because we wouldn't be managing the major issues that we are

dealing with today.

Complications of diabetes, stroke, hypertension,

complications of obesity and

metabolic syndrome, heart attack, sudden cardiac death,

surviving and having ICDs and a lot of the heart failure...

There are so many things that would go away if we were all to

be on plant-based nutrition and having a good lifestyle, in

terms of watching our weight and doing adequate exercise.

John Robbins: I'm wondering if there's a contradiction here,

where if we ask the cardiological community to

promote healthy diets that could eliminate 30 of 35 of their

jobs--six-sevenths of their jobs. Is there a built-in

contradiction there?

Dr. Williams: It's interesting that I think most of the

cardiologists who have heard me talk about this, standing in

front of the American College of

Cardiology and getting an applause when I said something

that I thought would be very controversial, which was,

"Wouldn't it be great to eliminate our specialty in the

next two generations?" Well, I think the fact that people are

applauding is because they recognize that this is

relatively low-hanging fruit. There are some very difficult

things in cardiovascular medicine. This isn't one of them

in terms of the science. The hard part is the behavioral

change that's necessary. If we were to solve that on a

large scale... These cardiologists are pretty well

trained, they're very talented people, and they could do other

things for a living. The issues that we have with overworking

cardiologists--coming in in the middle of the night for heart

attacks and the like--the lifestyle would be dramatically

better. Sure, income would go down, but job satisfaction would

go up. John Robbins: If you have a

patient with advanced heart disease, if you can show them a

narrowed artery on an angiogram or a CT scan, if you can show

them a defect... Will they then be more open to making

significant changes in their eating patterns?

Dr. Williams: I think they really are able to visualize a

lot of this. I actually do show this in my clinic whenever it

comes up. I go to a search engine, and I actually pull up

Caldwell Esselstyn's reversal images. With that first

angiogram that comes up where there's a 32-month elimination

of a massive amount of a plaque

burden, the patients--even if they've never seen anything that

looks like a coronary angiogram before--they can understand the

idea of a blocked pipe in their house. The pipe, then, being

perfectly clean is a very good visual.

John Robbins: When you talk about the images that you show

to your patients, I'm thinking about the significance of the

PET studies that Ornish has done. Our listeners may not

realize that PET studies,

positron emission tomography

studies, are actually very

sophisticated. They're used in nuclear medicine, which is your

specialty, and they depend on a scanning device that is

extremely expensive. Most researchers really don't have

access to PET studies, but Ornish did, and he published

research that I believe showed that if you take people with

critical coronary disease and you put them on a plant strong

whole foods diet, along with a

few other very basic lifestyle changes, their blood flow

improves dramatically without stents, without bypass

procedures and, back then, even without drugs.

Dr. Williams: It's very interesting that we're looking

at a couple of different things.

Believe it or not, this actually has been shown with nuclear

cardiology and statins, as well. That before the plaque is

actually gone, or before this substantial reduction in the

so-called "percent diameter stenosis"--that is how much the

width of an artery is depleted by the plaque--before that can

actually change, you see improvement in blood flow with

diet change. You'd see with statins, too. You actually can

see it with exercise, as well, but the effect of it is actually

much faster than the anatomic improvement.

That has to do with the so-called endothelium. Each one

of our arteries in lined by a living organ called the

endothelium. Those endothelial cells respond to their

environment. When you have this ugly inflammatory goop inside of

a plaque, the biochemical milieu

does not lend itself for normal function of the endothelium.

There will be limitations in flow that can be induced just by

one fatty meal that will last

for six hours at a time. Of course, as Michael Greger likes

to say, "What do they do after six hours? They eat again." Yet

another high fat meal. So we end up with problems with myocardial

blood flow, with brain blood flow, with erectile function,

all of which could be eliminated in hours by changing to a

plant-based diet. John Robbins: You mentioned

erectile dysfunction. There's a urologist, whom you probably

know--Dr. Terry Mason?

Dr. Williams: I know him very well, yes.

John Robbins: He says heart disease starts in the penis. He

says, "The stiffer the arteries, the softer the penis." As a

cardiologist, do you see a correlation between

cardiovascular disease and erectile dysfunction? And if

there is, does that mean that the same dietary changes that

have been shown to literally reverse and prevent heart

disease would also be effective in reversing and preventing

erectile dysfunction?

Dr. Williams: You're absolutely right. When I ran the University

of Chicago Nuclear Cardiology Lab, this was one of the first

places to actually publish the correlation between erectile

dysfunction and severity of coronary heart disease. It's

been pretty well known for a while that there's a

correlation. Now, what you're asking is

something that still needs to be investigated in an organized,

randomized fashion. What happens to tumescence--and every aspect

of erectile function--when one changes the diet, and what's the

time course? We have a lot of anecdotes. We have a lot of

patients coming back and saying, "I'm bothering my wife now.

She's going through menopause and all of a sudden my erectile

function is not something that she can deal with." [LAUGHS]

That presents its own set of problems, I understand. It's a

good sign to the cardiologist

that the blood vessel function has improved significantly.

John Robbins: And it kind of puts into a dubious category the

thinking that beef is "real food for real men" and masculinity is

somehow measured by how much meat people eat.

Dr. Williams: Indeed. Once we start talking about the meat,

there's something that everyone should know, and that is that

there's this large amount of literature. It is no longer

anecdotes. It's a large amount of very well heeled,

peer-reviewed literature that talks about the detrimental

effects of meat--particularly about mortality. I'm a

effects of meat--particularly about mortality. I'm a

cardiologist and spend most of my time talking about heart

disease. To have a person improve their heart and die

anyway isn't what we're looking for. I would refer everyone,

whether they're a scientist, a physician, a layperson or a

vegetarian who wants to convince someone else to go vegetarian to

look up the October 1st issue of

the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA).

It has an article that specifically describes the death

rate increase by consumption of

animal protein. John Robbins: That was in the

September 1, 2016 issue? Dr. Williams: Absolutely.

There's this one graphic that I have tweeted and shared with so

many people... It's on the ninth page [LAUGHS], page 1461. People

could look at that one table. It's a fisher plot, but even a

layperson can see that it favors plant protein on the left,

favors animal protein on the right. There's nothing on the

right [LAUGHS] in terms of other

cause of death, cancer death, cardiovascular death or

all-cause death. You'd have to be ignoring death to eat animals

after looking at the science of this.

John Robbins: You're saying, if I'm understanding you correctly,

that the longstanding belief that animal protein is

superior--that it's more complete than plant-based

protein--is actually not only untrue and misleading but

dangerous. You're saying and the data is saying that the more our

protein derives from animal products, the more likely we are

to die of all causes. Dr. Williams: That's exactly

right. John Robbins: You're an athlete.

You have been a tennis pro. You're in great shape, I know.

And you are a vegan. Dr. Williams: Indeed.

John Robbins: From your experience, and I'm sure you

monitor your body carefully as a

highly trained cardiologist, are you thriving on a vegan diet? Is

your athletic performance there? Is your ability to function in

your highly stressed career up to speed?

Dr. Williams: Indeed. It's hard to do a single-person

experiment, but I can tell you several observations for the

wider population. If you were to take athletes, in

general, and you put them all on

a plant-based diet, you're going to find that you're going to

excel in things that require quickness and agility and even

endurance. If you try doing power training, wrestling,

football, interior linemen, that sort of thing, plant based

nutrition is probably not the best. Interestingly enough, if

you look at what happens to those athletes who do the power

training, they're eating large amounts of animal products, and

they have a successful National Football League career. What

happens to them when they're in

their 50's? If dramatic changes to their

diet are not made, they end up with premature death very

frequently. You have this short-term gain and a decrease

in longevity when you're successfully athleticizing with

animal products.

John Robbins: Today we know that the NFL interior linemen, though

their careers are short and they make a lot of money--they are

rich and famous and prestigious in their way--they die very

early. The average life span of an NFL lineman is in the 50's.

They die, on average, in their mid-50's. It's really a

short-term benefit, if any, and the cost in terms of the quality

of their life and certainly the length of their life seems very

high. Dr. Williams: It's interesting,

and I don't know these gentlemen very well, but I do have two

particular standouts from the NFL: Fred Dryer from the

"Fearsome Foursome" who became a famous actor and the honorable

Alan Page from the "Purple People Eaters." They have gotten

into their 70's without any difficulty--no health problems.

What they share is being thin. They somehow made that switch,

and it had to be diet,

lifestyle, something that they did, but that's not generally

what happens. There usually is a significant increase in

non-muscular weight, which then

will have all the negative

effects, such as diabetes,

hypertension, metabolic syndrome, etc.

John Robbins: There's been a lot of controversy about nuts and

olive oil and other fats and their role in a heart-healthy

diet. My take is that if you're someone with advanced heart

disease--you've got acute symptoms, you've got very tight

blockages, you're a candidate for bypass surgery--an

Esselstyn-type diet that's vegan

and very low fat might really be helpful. It might, in fact, be

the best way to go. If you follow an Ornish-type diet--a

whole foods plant strong diet that includes some healthy fats,

olive oil, seeds and nuts--then

you're very likely to prevent those kinds of problems from

arising in the first place. What would be the optimum diet for

you depends on where you are on this spectrum. Would you agree

with that?

Dr. Williams: I agree with that

completely. Let me refine a little bit. I do get people with

three-vessel coronary artery disease-type stenosis, and one

difficulty that we've had in the field of cardiology is putting

in a stent or doing a bypass and never telling the patient what

it was that got them there in the first place and how they

need to change it. That's something that we all in

cardiology need to recognize and we need to change.

The next issue, though, is that the more severe the patient, the

more stringent the diet really needs to be. I don't know that

olive oil, specifically, increases plaque. I do know that

the absence of olive oil, based on Caldwell Esselstyn's studies,

will decrease the plaque pretty

fast. I'd add one category to it, and that is people with or

without coronary artery disease who have risk factors and they

have obesity as a major issue.

For moderate or morbid obesity, I always recommend the Esselstyn

diet, and that's based on something that I remember

hearing at one of Dr. McDougal's courses: The fat you eat is the

fat you wear. That line is fixed in your head. It's very true.

We have learned recently that there were problems with the

presentation of science with sugar. I'm not sure if you heard

about that controversy a few weeks ago.

John Robbins: Oh yes. Yes. Dr. Williams: To summarize it

quickly, the Sugar Research Foundation people back at their

inception had actually convinced folks at an Ivy League

institution to suppress research, and this is all

written up in the Journal of American Medical Association

(JAMA). I took two lessons away from that: Number one, if I'm

going to do something nefarious, hide the paperwork so that after

I'm gone no one will know. I say that jokingly, of course. The

second lesson is that it's not just "The fat you eat is the fat

you wear" but also "The sugar you eat is the fat you wear."

It's that both sugar and saturated fat have exactly the

same effect on cardiovascular death.

John Robbins: When you talk about sugar and saturated fat, I

think of ice cream. It is the epitome of sugar and saturated

fat. You may not know that my father was the founder and owner

of Baskin Robbins 31 Flavors--the ice cream company.

Dr. Williams: Oh my goodness. John Robbins: And I was groomed

to succeed him. It was his expectation that I would follow

in his footsteps and run the company. I chose a very

different direction because I didn't want to make my living

selling a product that might undermine people's health. It's

one of the reasons I do the work I do--it's that I feel so

strongly that just as ice cream is bad for you in any kind of

excess, healthy food, a plant-strong diet, is great for

you. Not only to prevent disease

but to enhance your health, make you more vital, more vibrant,

more emotionally resilient, more intellectually and cognitively

capable... They just make life more joyful.

Dr. Williams: Indeed.

John Robbins: I want to ask you... I'm thinking about a

study, and we were talking about fat a moment ago. The study was

published in Journal of the American Medical Association,

and I imagine you're familiar with it. They reported a

randomized trial with three different diets. One was a low

fat diet, one was a low fat diet that included statins, and the

other was a vegan diet that included plenty of beans and

fiber and plant sterols and that also included a handful of

almonds three times a day. They found that the vegan diet with

almonds lowered LDL cholesterol every bit as much as the statins

did and also lowered C-reactive

protein, which is very important, even faster than the

statins did. What I want to ask you, Kim, is first of all, are

you familiar with the study?

Dr. Williams: Not only am I familiar, but for me that study

was pivotal and life changing. That was published the day after

I went vegan. John Robbins: Oh my!

Dr. Williams: In March of 2003. John Robbins: Tell us.

Dr. Williams: I had gone to the American College of Cardiology

meeting in Dallas, as I hadn't done in a couple of years,

realizing sort of after the fact that that was when I stopped

being pretty much a full-time tennis coach. All of a sudden,

I'm overwhelmed with work, and

I'm working out, but certainly not twice a day and not at the

same level. At the same time, I'm eating this, quote,

"heart-healthy" diet with no red meat, no fried foods, just

chicken breast--no skin, not fried--and salmon.

John Robbins: The typical diet that's considered a healthy

diet. Dr. Williams: Exactly--without

ever having Googled the term "cholesterol content of chicken

breast" or "cholesterol content of salmon." Of course, I did it

after the fact and realized that I was eating a very

high-cholesterol diet. It was low fat, but fat wasn't my

issue. As it turns out, it was very great to have David Jenkins

right on time telling me... I knew I needed to be vegan, but

the question was, how? I adopted that Vegan Portfolio Diet. It

was a little daunting with a busy schedule and keeping up

with the three handfuls of almonds everyday, but I was

doing it as much as I could. The interesting thing was that six

weeks later, my LDL had dropped from 170 mg/dL down to 90.

John Robbins: That is tremendous confirmation.

Dr. Williams: Indeed. John Robbins: People are often

told to get their cholesterol checked and then they find out

their total cholesterol levels, their LDL, their HDL, and we can

measure particle density and sub particles and oxidized LDL and

so many other things. One of the results of this is a lot of

people are confused. What's most important for people to

understand? Dr. Williams: Number one is that

if you try to break it down, just remember that the total

cholesterol is a combination of everything, and it may or may

not be a good or bad thing. The triglycerides are small fat

in the blood. We used to call the cholesterol components, "The

Good, the Bad and the Ugly." This is "the Ugly." It does make

your bloodstream look ugly. It gets this white coat in it after

you eat the bacon and eggs in the morning, and it's running

around creating havoc inside the blood vessels, as well as making

the LDL particles more dense. Dense LDL particles are more

likely to go inside of an artery and make plaque than non-LDL

dense particles. We really like to get the triglycerides down.

The other thing about it is that it is a great, great lifestyle

marker. If someone is doing alcohol, sugar, large amounts of

starch, fried food, not exercising, big belly, insulin

resistant headed toward diabetes, their triglycerides

are almost always high. John Robbins: I still find it

sad, though, that so many people wait until they get sick to do

something about a problem that could have been prevented in the

first place. There are a lot of people who hear about the Ornish

program. They hear about the work of a Dr. Esselstyn, but

they just file it away. They don't think it's relevant to

them. They think they're doing fine, and why fix what isn't

broken? If you had their attention, and if you could

speak totally freely to them, what would you want to say to


Dr. Williams: This is a really good question. What I would like

them to do is just shadow me for a week and see the number of

people who come in with heart attacks, come in with strokes,

have atherosclerotic aortic aneurysms, for example. I hope

that they don't see atherosclerotic plaque in the

mesenteric artery--those are really disastrous cases. But the

amputations of the feet and that sort of thing... Once you see

all of that, if you know that it's totally preventable, it

really should have an impact on you, but you're quite correct

that we have much more traction in people who have had events

than we have in people who have not had events.

The thing that's difficult for me is my colleagues in

cardiology. It would seem... I haven't seen data on it. I would

love to collect data on it, but it seems to me, now that I'm

getting up in the 60's a little bit, that the leading cause of

death in cardiologists is heart disease.

John Robbins: Oh my! Isn't that telling?

Dr. Williams: Doesn't that tell us something? Yeah, I have

electricians and plumbers in my clinic. They don't have problems

with their wiring and their pipes, respectively. Why would a

cardiologist die of heart disease? It's because we are so

good at mopping up the floor that there isn't a major concern

at a personal level about

changing things. I preach this all the time. I have to admit,

out of my 35 cardiologists, I have four vegans; so we're

changing things at Rush. It's a process to try to get this to

the entire cardiovascular community. The reason I think

it's so key is that once that happens, then that kind of

behavior will filter to the non-cardiac physicians and, more

importantly, to the patients.

John Robbins: Yes, and then we will see a decrease in

healthcare spending, and we'll see an increase in the health of

our population that could be quite dramatic, I think.

Dr. Williams: I agree completely. It spontaneously

came to me that we're talking about healthcare expenditures.

What are we talking about when I'm looking at all of the data?

This isn't healthcare. This is

sick care. Why don't we do

healthcare? John Robbins: Kim, I want to ask

you about a related topic now, and that is the role of

inflammation in heart disease. Do we have compelling evidence

that people with inflammatory conditions, with inflammation in

their bodies, are far more likely to develop cardiovascular


Dr. Williams: We do. Probably the best example that we have is

the so-called JUPITER trial, but there are loads of examples that

have been calling out to us for

decades. Patients with rheumatoid arthritis, patients

with systemic lupus erythematosus, people with

chronic inflammatory conditions who end up having a very high

cardiovascular disease rate. John Robbins: Based upon the

studies that we do have and also on your intuition as someone who

has been looking at this field for a long time very carefully,

would you say there are food choices that produce more

inflammation, and at the same time, are there other food

choices that are anti-inflammatory?

Dr. Williams: I think very much that it has a lot to do with

animal products. The more of them you eat, the higher the

C-reactor protein is going to be, and for pretty much everyone

who goes vegan, they disappear, as do all of the inflammatory

markers. To that end, there are a variety of diseases that one

could put through a search engine--lupus or rheumatoid

arthritis or inflammatory bowel disease--and see dramatic

improvement in outcomes if/when someone goes on a plant based

diet. John Robbins: I want to ask you

one final question. It's in a different topic, in a way. There

have been a huge number of popular hospital-based TV shows:

MASH, ER, Doogie Howser, M.D., Grey's Anatomy, General

Hospital, House, Nurse Jackie... There're lots of them. Do you

have a favorite of these shows, and in general, what's your view

of the messages they convey to the public?

Dr. Williams: Oh, that's two very separate questions.

[LAUGHS] John Robbins: Yes.

Dr. Williams: The entertainment value may not be related to what

the messaging is. I have to say that I'm a Grey's fan, like many

people, but the one that I liked the most, of course, was House

because it was so ridiculous, and yet they were usually done

very well. I learned a fair lot

number of non-cardiac things. It is funny to see an internist or

neurosurgeon doing a coronary angiogram in scenes like that.

[LAUGHING] There were some bizarre things in it, but I will

always remember not to go into a cesspool for swimming so I don't

get Naegleria going up and

eating my brain... Perhaps if I'd been in medical school

recently I would have found out that sort of thing, but I

learned about it from House.

The more bizarre the diagnostic dilemma, the more I enjoyed the

show. I would highlight that

each one of these shows has an opportunity to talk about

lifestyle issues and educate the public. I would challenge them

all to try.

For example, if you look at

Grey's, there seems to be a specific agenda in terms of

gender and ethnic diversity that's displayed. It seems to be

a very upfront message. Why not do that same thing with

lifestyle? You hear things mentioned, but it's something

that I think they could show.

You know, have a whole show on how you change the hospital food

because you wanted to decrease the bad outcomes, et cetera.

That's my feeling--that they

have a good platform to change the minds of many Americans.

John Robbins: Well, I'd like to see them use that platform for

that purpose, and I'd like to see our whole culture shift to

make it easier for people both to understand the benefits of a

plant-strong whole foods diet but also to make those kinds of

choices on a regular basis and enjoy the fruits and benefits of

doing so. If we do move in that direction as a culture, it will

be largely thanks to people like you, Dr. Williams. I really

appreciate the work you've done--the pioneering work you've

done. You are the first vegan president of the American

College of Cardiology. You're a pioneer in so many ways. It's

been a real pleasure and a joy to have you with us today.

Dr. Williams: I really appreciate the opportunity, and

I just want to throw that back at you. I'm really proud to hear

your story. I'm very encouraged by it, and the fact that this is

what you're doing instead of selling ice cream is really,

really impressive to me. John Robbins: Thank you.

Ocean: We've been talking here with American College of

Cardiology trustee and fellow and Rush University Medical

Center of Cardiology Department Head Dr. Kim Williams. Dr.

Williams, the way I see it is that there's a big difference

between knowledge and wisdom. In your field, there are a lot of

cardiologists who have immense knowledge about the treatment of

disease, but sadly, when it comes to health and prevention,

often have tragically little wisdom. You, on the other hand,

have spent decades studying, understanding, and teaching how

to truly help patients to step into greater health. We're so

grateful for your important work, for your wisdom, for your

leadership, and for your partnership in the food

revolution. Dr. Williams: Thank you so much

for those kind words. It's very inspiring. I really appreciate


Ocean: Thank you much to Dr. Kim Williams and to my dad

and colleague, John Robbins for that informative and inspiring

conversation. To express your opinions and

what you've been hearing and to find out what other people are

saying, post and engage in the comments section at the bottom

of our broadcast page. Make sure to refresh the

comments, use igthe refresh comments button so can you see

the most recent comments that have been submitted.

And now, I'm going to share and respond to some of the questions

course posting. We heard from Victoria --

forgive me for mispronouncing your last name here, who said

thank you for the summit. So much great information and

usable ways to change our lives. I have changed my diet to

primary plant-based and reduced my stat infrom 20 milligrams per

day to 5mg per day, when while my cholesterol numbers have

dropped. I was so glad to hear, in

support of my own thoughts that, stat ins are a bandaid.

I intend to share this summit a friend who has that's, over

weight, and said she really can't move much down dew to

pain. She's caring for a special needs

adult child. Now, she is concern as her son

completes his education, he will land a job away from them, as

they need him to do things around the house.

So who will be home to care for a special needs sister?

As I listened to my friend. I just gently said, she needs to

get on the his train. Her response was, we can't.

L we try a little. Her husband has already had a

heart attack in his 50's and another cardiac episode and

hasn't the changed his lifestyle much.

He's a researcher at a university.

My friend say pharmacist. They both have science

backgrounds. I think maybe your summit might

help them. I believe that maybe if they

heart science behind how they can change their lifestyle and

improve and lengthen their lives.

Maybe they can begin. I can only hope as I do not want

to lose them prematurely. L Vick tore yeah, thank you for

sharing your story and your friends story and know, my heart

goes out to them and to their family and all the struggles

that they are enduring and there are so many people right here

and right now who are suffering. Suffering with pain.

Suffering with fear, suffer wealth loss of loved once or the

struggles of loved ones. So there's a lot of pain that

we're discussing here, really and some of that pain is

preventible. Some of that pain can be

reversed. And that is what we're about

here. We want to share and discover

what we can do to help there be Les pain and Les suffering in

this world. And less suffering in the lives

of those we love. I feel how much you care about

your friend and their family and I hope that you're able to share

this with them in some way that supports them.

You know, there's the saying that pain pushes and vision

pulls. Sometimes it is suffering and

pain that propels us when, it becomes intense enough, when our

live are on the line, to make big and radical changes.

Sometimes it is vision which pulls us forward. It's our

hope, our inspiration, our sense of possibility.

It's our longing to thrive that calls us out, and helps us to

step forward. So whether it is pain or vision

I hope we can all learn what we need to create a world, whether

it's more suffering, and more beaut and he joy.

We heard from Cheryl Dixon who said a year and a half ago, I

had a sonogram which revealed an 80% blockage in my left car

oat corroded artery.

Her comment turned me off, and I have not returned to her.

I have listened and changed my diet tremendous, based on what I

have learned through the Food Revolution Summit.

I want to have a new sonogram done to see if my changes

eliminated my risk. I want to find a doctor that's

supportive. Thank you for the knowledge you

all impart. Thanks, Cheryl, for sharing your

story and learning what you're put interesting action.

I think we need to combine with what we're learning here W rice

right use of diagnostic and medical terminology.

Duct tape in the right place can be life-saving but you don't

build your house can duct tape. Medicine can help fix problems.

It can save lives. But it can't build a healthy

body. Only healthy food and a healthy

lifestyle can do that. So we do what we can, and

hopefully, we can create a real partnership between medical

technology, and the foundations of health, which is how we live

and eat. We heard from Anna who has, the

experts have you in the summit or great.

And I'm learning a lot. I'm a totally fan of John

Robbins. I just read his book the Food

Revolution and it mind life forever. It is amazing how

important is the food that we eat.

It's incredible he can gather all that information in one

life-changing book. Thank you much for your

inspiration. I really fortunate for finding

new people at the Food Revolution and ton that there

are people in this world that speak up and fight peacefully,

but firmly for what they believe.

Thank you much, Ann A. yes, I agree.

My dad's books have changed my life, too.

[laughing] I am such a fan, and I love how he has captured so

much wisdom and distilled it in way that is have helped millions

of people on their way to eating healthy.

As an interviewer, he has helping to illicit and bring out

the genius of so many of the brilliant speakers of this

summit. He can do so with such expertise

because he is himself, such annex extraordinary leader and

visionary and such a source of wisdom and insparation to so

many people in this world. This books have changed millions

of lives, and thank you for sharing your story and letting

us know about it and the Food Revolution was written some

years back, but it is still incredibly timely today.

We heard from Leah who said, the information here is absolutely

valuable and priceless. You know what I'm so impressed

with? The genuine love and respect,

each guests has with John and ocean is so tangible.

Especially at the end of every interview when they say good

bye. I love hearing the mutual

respect each has for one another.

Living out what you preach. Thank you, Leah.

We do have a lot of respect for each other.

I feel so honored to be able to share the voices of so many wise

visionary leaders in this summit.

You know, the speakers in this summit are each pioneers, each

changing countless lives, and they are students of what works

and they're helping to share what works.

We love getting to share their discoveries with you.

We heard from Shundulan, who said, this is so true.

I was recently in the hospital for blot clots in my lungs.

I asked for a vegetarian meal. Most of the food came from a

box, I am sure. The patient next to me, also has respiratory

problems and they had given her six ice creams in one day.

The doctor made a statement about why she was getting worse:

Stop giving her milk and sugar! " yes, thank you for sharing

that. It is such an outrage, I, I

think, that so many hospitals are serving food that has part

of the problem. You know, a lot of patients are

at a moment of vulnerability when they're in a hospital.

And it could know be a moment of decisive change.

Some hospitals say, it's not a time to push people or challenge

people. Y we want to make them feel

comfortable and give them what they are used to.

But it could be a moment, a turning point.

When you see a McDonald's at hospitals, fast food and French

fries and ice cream being served in hospitals, you've got to sort

of be marveled at the lunacy of it.

And for me, I say, this deepens my results and this has got to

change. We need to serve real food in

hospitals, in schools, in workplaces and in our own

homes. We need to serve real food.

Healthy food and I stand committed for the day, when all

the doctors of our times, recognize that food matters,

stop dismissing it and start supporting their patients and

standing for their patients, and leveraging it to help them heal.

We heard from

Oci, who has I'm a doctorate of medicine taking a

Ph.D. This summit has taught me so

much and has changed the way I look at health and disease.

I've made notes, gone to the websites of the speakers and put

together ideas how I can transform my own practice

stipulate lives of my patients. The work you and my dad are

doing, is truly revolutionary. It is preventative medicine at

the highest level and so needed to lead a better life.

Thank you with all my heart. Well, thank you much for

reaching out, and&for looking at how you can apply what you are

learning in this summit in your future medical practice.

I'm thrilled. I know you will help a lot

people. I love that you're taking notes

and you don't have to take notes anymore.

Unless you want to because you're going to have the

transcripts for life. Our team is going to be giving

you an Empowerment Package so you'll have the MP3 recordings

to listen to, any time or anyplace g you want.

You'll have the transcripts, which include, by the way,

source links to medical studies when they're cited in the

presentations and you'll also have Spanish translation F

that's a relevance for you. You'll have it all for life.

Plus 2,006 human dollars worth of bonuses of our speakers.

We hope it helps you on your healing path and on your math of

service to your patients. Congratulations.

And congratulations also, to all of the new Empowerment Package

owners who are stepping up can get the Empowerment Package and

investing in our work and also investing in their own health.

Ann from Kentucky, shill freNew York New York.

Lola from Georgia. Wanda from New York.

Michelle from arc ank Sally from STAND BY].

Tracy from the United Kingdom, and so many more.

Congratulations to all of you, and turks thank you.

For supporting us, and thank you, thank you, thank you, for

supporting your health and supporting the Food Revolution.

And now, it is time for our revolutionary recipe of the day

with chef extrordinare, Karen Heartglass.

We have a revolutionary recipe of the day.

Can you scroll down and find it on the broadcast page.

Karen is the founder of responsible eating and living

or "Real" she is the co-host and co-presenter of plant powered

and Thriving online course that we offer it in June this year.

Stay tuned for that. She is an expert in

helping make healthy eating practical and

delicious. We hear a recipe of the day from

her and I'm going to hand it now to Karen.

Karen: Hello, ocean! Hi, everybody.

It's fascinating to discover that heart disease can be

prevented and often reversed, isn't it?

And all the experts today agree that a Whole Foods, plant-based

diet is an important part of heart health.

The good news is that eating for a healthy heart is also

satisfying and delicious. We have talked about eating the

rainbow this week, getting all those high-fiber,

health-promoting nutrients from colorful fruits and vegetables

but don't

forget about colnow, just because it is white.

It's one -- don't forget about cally flower.

Cal flower is rich in phytonutrients.

Our recipe of the day, is roasted garlic mashed

Calliflower. It's a variation on mashed

potatoes, and just as creamy and comforting, and yes, it is also

good for you. Roasting bulbs of garlic

together W a large onion is an easy way to Carmelize them and

it gives this dish a sweet, rich, buttery flavor without any

saturated fat. In fact, once you have tried

roasting garlic and onions and discovery how delicious they

are, you'll want to use them with other ditious, too.

We use a Clay garlic bake earth home to roast of the garlic and

onions. But can you use any baking pan

that can be covered. You might want to include,

roasted garlic mashed cally flawer at your Thanksgiving

table or at a festive meal. Here's to healthy heart, and

eating and living for a healthy heart.

Ocean: Thank you much, Karen. I love T. we heard from Kim who

said, I'm the mother of four children under the age of five

and a wife to a sugar-loving husband.

My love for these people and myself, is motivating me to

change the way that we eat. My husband and I grew up on the

standard American diet and we are now experiencing the effects

of this lifestyle. I do not want this for our

children. I'm so grateful for all the

things I'm learning in this summit. It's settling me into

what will be our new normal. L the process seems scary and

overwhelming. It will not over power my

determination to rescue my family from a future of bad

health. Kim, thank you for sharing this.

I hear you. And my heart goes out to your

family, with whatever suffering your experiencing, and I also am

so grateful you're getting this information, and you know, I

want to celebrate your love for your family and your love of

life and your commitment to doing what you can, to nurture

and care for your family's well-being.

Sometimes it is our love of other people that is most

motivatings to. We know we have to set an example.

We know we have to find the culture in many cases.

You know, in our homes and when you dedefine it in a healthy

way, in a life serving way, you can help to create positive

change for the people you cherish.

So thank you Kim for sharing this.

And blessings to your husband, and to you and to your children

and to your whole family. We heard from carol, who said I

live in palm springs. A lot of elderly people here, and it

breaks my heart to see so many of these people suffering with

how they eat with the typical standard American diet.

The lecture with Dr. Guarneri has encourage Mead to want to

start some kind of class to educate these people,

incorporating the Ornish program.

I followed John Robbins many years now, and I'm grateful for

what you and ocean and your dad, you, ocean and your dad are

doing, by bringing all this incredible information from arc

mazing speakers to us. Thank you -- amazing speakers to

us. Thank you and many blessings.

Thank you much. And I love that you're thinking

about starting some kind of a class to spread education in

your community. Even just to change one life

when, think of the significance of that, it's truly profound.

And so every one of us has a part to play, I think.

Some people ask me what Do I to be an agent of change.

How can I make a difference? I think there are more than

7 billion parts to play in the transformation.

From more than 7 billion people on this planet.

Whatever community you live in, whatever your nearby, I think it

helps to prepare you, perfectly, perhaps even

exquisitely for your unique part.

You know, carol live fist palm springs.

Maybe she can help work with people by teaching classes

there. There are a lot of retired folks in palm springs.

Maybe that's her nearby or community.

People are concern about her kids in schools.

Other people are passionate about what is nerved hospitals.

Maybe that's a place to -- what is served in hospitals.

Maybe that's a place to focus. Or change what the restaurants

are serving in their community or holding certain companies

accountable for their practices and actions.

You know, there are so many places can you make an impact,

make a difference and help to create a food revolution in your

life, in your family's life N your community, in your nation

and on this planet. So what I want to suggest is

that for everybody listening right now, if there's a fire lit

in you F there's an inspiration lit in you, think about how can

you move that forward. Sometimes the first step may

seem small but it's about the momentum that we build. It's

about moving in a direction. As we move in that direction,

each new step becomes more powerful.

This is about us. It's very personal and intimate.

It's about our families, our lives, our health and our

bodies. It's also about a Food

Revolution. It's about the world we live in,

and the world we will lead for our children and our grand

children. We can create healthy food

culture. We can create a world where

healthy eating is the norm, where it becomes easier and

easier to do the right things for our body, our health, our

mental health well-being, and our vascular system.

That's why we're here, to love, and explore and live together.

We heard from Monica. I've been listening to all the

episodes of this summit and thank you for this information.

My mom has passed with heart disease, and diabetes and feel

she could have learned from this.

I am off of stat inmedications and stress medications, which as

we all know, have terrible sidesques.

Now, I'm working on clearing up gut infections, and trying to

improve my gut micro biome. I so wish I was aware of the

importance of nutrition and managing stress earlier, but I'm

very grateful for your summit and knowledge being provided.

Health prevention needs to be focused O. not only about

treating existing diseases, I am trying to spread this message

and hope one day, to help thousands of people.

Thank you all you do in spreading the the word.

I am so glad that you're participating, and I hope this

summit is of value to you. We heard from Patricia who said,

I love those who are doing this, have a community support system.

I truly believe it was a support system.

So finding people who are like-minded is crucial.

This the food revolution one of many communities, finding

support, finding resources can

be -- what we have the opportunity to do right here and

right now is to create another kind of a future, and we often

need support and

resources to affirm our sanity, even when

we're surrounded by insanity. And to help us feel connection.

Enjoy and community on the journey.

So in the Food Revolution, we do have that opportunity.

You can post and engage in the comments section at the bottom

of the broadcast page. Share your Food Revolution,

share what the Food Revolution has meant for you.

Share how it was changing your life.

Share what you're learning, share key epiphanies, "ah, huhs"

from today's presentations. Share what you are struggling

with and where you need help. Share what other people need

help on Arizona L. we are approaching Day 5 of this Food

Revolution Summit. Join us tomorrow 8:00 a.m.

pacific time, 11:00 eastern, 3:00 GN T for a proven and

powerful strategies for health. How the latest scientific

breaklieus can help you thrive. We're going to have extremely

powerful presentations from Dr. Perlmutter.

Dietician, Brenda Davis with seasoned guidance for

plan-powered health. And from Dr. Dean Ornish, on the

transform tive power of lifestyle medicine.

In the meanwhile, post and share your comments.

Join in the conversation. Catch and shirt replays at. and check out the Empowerment

Package so can you own it all for life I also invite to you

enjoy some delicious, healthy food.

We wish you a beautiful, Thriving day.

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